Please comment re this pic.

Zorros · May 21, 2021

Was shooting a 45 colt new frontier and a 1907 made colt SAA. Loads were homemade schofields, 4.2 bullseye and 250 coated lead rnfn bullet from acme. Last rd in cyl the cyl locked up. Thought loaded rd under hammer but turned out fired. This bullet was in the forcing cone, protruding enough to lock up cyl. Yikes. What might have been. I load one at a time with a lee classic but i guess it is possible i did not charge this rd, although there was recoil. Maybe recoil made improperly crimped bullet separate from case?

guzma393 · May 21, 2021

Was there a bunch of unburnt powder everywhere? It not, it could be from having no charge at all.

Uncle Duke · May 21, 2021

Looks like no powder charge.

What would be of greater concern given an uncharged case, would be if you could possibly have a double charged case also, somewhere in that same batch.

Pale Ryder · May 21, 2021

Wasn’t there a difference in recoil? Probably no powder. When I was reloading regularly, one final look in the loading tray to make sure they all had powder before starting to seat bullets.

John from MD · May 21, 2021

That bullet was thrown by a primer only ignition. Either the case wasn't charged or the powder got wet. The lack of powder all over the cylinder will tell the story.

Zorros · May 21, 2021

As careful as i thought i was, i will chalk this up to carelessness and no charge. I weighed all the others in that batch. Found two light loads, and disassembled and they had powder. Marred the cyl ( blueing a bit) but its a decent reminder. When i took my handgun inst class 20 years ago, an old timer in the class said he kept a freezer with a bullet hole in it as a reminder. Who can duplicate colt royal blue?

euler357 · May 21, 2021

I agree that it sounds like you didn't have any powder. *** IF *** there was unburned powder, it is possible that you didn't get powder ignition. This is more common when using powders that are hard-to-ignite (like W296 and others) and/or using powder/load combinations that only taking up a small part of the cartridge case. Quickload tells me that 4.2gr of Bullseye in a .45 S&W Schofield will fill 32% of the case volume. This means that the primer "fire" has farther to go if the powder is towards the front of the case. There are numerous tests published online showing significant velocity differences depending on where the powder is located when the round is fired.

Also, having a load that is >50% of the case volume will make it really obvious if you accidentally double-charge a reloaded round.

I've had a lot of issues with erratic ignition on .45 LC +P using W296 with standard (non-magnum) primers.

BTW - An accidental double-charge looks like it will be at about 26,000PSI (14,000 is Max Pressue)

Uncle Duke · May 21, 2021

euler357 said:
I agree that it sounds like you didn't have any powder. *** IF *** there was unburned powder, it is possible that you didn't get powder ignition. This is more common when using powders that are hard-to-ignite (like W296 and others) and/or using powder/load combinations that only taking up a small part of the cartridge case. Quickload tells me that 4.2gr of Bullseye in a .45 S&W Schofield will fill 32% of the case volume. This means that the primer "fire" has farther to go if the powder is towards the front of the case. There are numerous tests published online showing significant velocity differences depending on where the powder is located when the round is fired.

Also, having a load that is >50% of the case volume will make it really obvious if you accidentally double-charge a reloaded round.

I've had a lot of issues with erratic ignition on .45 LC +P using W296 with standard (non-magnum) primers.

BTW - An accidental double-charge looks like it will be at about 26,000PSI (14,000 is Max Pressue)

No charge cases and double charged cases can both be obvious.
That is, when one is consciously looking for them.

Therein....lies the rub.

lazarus · May 22, 2021

Question, for a revolver would a squib be as bad? I know (generally) safer and easier to check. Just curious if the cylinder gap would help allow the pressure to keep from building as high if a bullet rammed in to another one in the barrel.

Or if the gap doesn’t have any significant difference in that pressure spike.

John from MD · May 22, 2021

lazarus said:
Question, for a revolver would a squib be as bad? I know (generally) safer and easier to check. Just curious if the cylinder gap would help allow the pressure to keep from building as high if a bullet rammed in to another one in the barrel.

Or if the gap doesn’t have any significant difference in that pressure spike.

It depends on the power level. I have taken 3 148gn HBWC's out of a Bullseye gun. They were loaded with 2.7gns of Bullseye powder and just stacked with no bulging.

I have also seen, a .357 mag bulged from a 158gn semi jacketed bullet loaded with 2400 powder.

When you shoot fast action games, it is even more important to insure all the cases have powder. Since normally you train for tap, rack, bang, you can easily eject a case and the bullet will be lodged in the barrel from a primer only ignition.

If you are shooting FMJ bullets, the chance of this happening is remote as the primer doesn't have the power to put the bullet far enough in the rifling to allow another to chamber. However, cast bullets are more apt to be pushed into the rifling.

The best plan is to make the best ammo every time.

GunBum · May 22, 2021

lazarus said:
Question, for a revolver would a squib be as bad? I know (generally) safer and easier to check. Just curious if the cylinder gap would help allow the pressure to keep from building as high if a bullet rammed in to another one in the barrel.

Or if the gap doesn’t have any significant difference in that pressure spike.

Not all rounds shot after a squib result in a catastrophic failure. I took 9, yes 9, bullets out of the barrel on a S&W 686+. They had to reload the 7 shot cylinder at least once to be able to stack 9 bullets in the barrel. Removing them required drilling through the center of the stack of bullets to reduce the tension on the barrel, then pushing them out. As I was pushing them out, I kept track of the number of bullet jackets in the bore. The funny part is that the revolver was owned by a very experienced shooter who is an NRA certified instructor.

Biggfoot44 · May 22, 2021

Euler357 is right ........ In general trends and rules of thumb .

Bullseye is a particularly easy to ignite powder . 4.2 gr in Schofield case w/ 250gr bullet should have no issues . ( Not making predictions as to most accurate load in particular revolver , but it should certainly go bang every time .)

If there would have been powder that didn't ignite , your photo would have included 4.2gr of unburned powder .

***********************

296 in .45 Colt depends on lots of factors :

How hot do you consider " .45 +P ?

The cumulative of all the factors effecting case neck tension .

Ambient conditions .

euler357 · May 22, 2021

Biggfoot44 said:
Euler357 is right ........ In general trends and rules of thumb .

Bullseye is a particularly easy to ignite powder . 4.2 gr in Schofield case w/ 250gr bullet should have no issues . ( Not making predictions as to most accurate load in particular revolver , but it should certainly go bang every time .)

If there would have been powder that didn't ignite , your photo would have included 4.2gr of unburned powder .

***********************

296 in .45 Colt depends on lots of factors :

How hot do you consider " .45 +P ?

The cumulative of all the factors effecting case neck tension .

Ambient conditions .

For .45 LC +P in a Super Redhawk (.454 Casull), I'm at 26.2gr of W296 pushing a ~255gr cast, gas checked bullet which hits about 1425fps (7.5" bbl). *** this is way over the SAAMI spec for .45 LC and should only be used in a gun made for higher pressures.

Here's an article that discusses Powder Position and Pressure
"Positional sensitivity is increased by unused case volume. Older cartridges designed to work with black powder and at low maximum pressures are the ones most commonly affected by this problem. The .45 Colt and .38 Special are two that fall into this category and both can have real powder position issues with lighter loadings."
http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/08/powder-position-and-pressure/

I agree that Bullseye is usually easy to ignite.

Seabee · Jun 18, 2021

lazarus said:
Question, for a revolver would a squib be as bad? I know (generally) safer and easier to check. Just curious if the cylinder gap would help allow the pressure to keep from building as high if a bullet rammed in to another one in the barrel.

Or if the gap doesn’t have any significant difference in that pressure spike.

I had a few squibs in my 454 with 1680 powder. Lodged a bullet halfway down the bore. Burnt powder granules all over the place and in the action. It looked like tan sand. I emailed my info to western powders and they tested it but could not duplicate it. They seemed to think a light crimp. I tend to agree and think the bullet may have jumped crimp a bit but not enough to lock up the action. I had other powders the same day during my tests, all loaded and crimped during the same session and no other powders produced squibs. I agree with the others that your case was a lack of powder.

GuitarmanNick · Jun 18, 2021

John from MD said:
If you are shooting FMJ bullets, the chance of this happening is remote as the primer doesn't have the power to put the bullet far enough in the rifling to allow another to chamber. However, cast bullets are more apt to be pushed into the rifling.

The best plan is to make the best ammo every time.

Revolvers do not need to chamber a round behind a squib as each round has it's own. In my .38 special, had my one and only squib because I failed to charge the case. Felt a change in the recoil, cleared the gun, and found the primer alone was enough to push the 125 grain FMJ halfway into the 2" barrel. Nothing was going to stop another round being fired except the shooter noticing a change and halting, immediately.

That load was done at my dad's, using his equipment and I was likely distracted while making those rounds. Now, I use my own equipment and distractions are non-existent. Every case in inspected for a charge before bullet seating, too.

Please comment re this pic.

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