any word on dealer policy for non handgun reg purchases going into the deadline.

iH8DemLibz · Sep 21, 2013

ShallNotInfringe said:
This is why we need to get an answer Monday on this. Bad.

What paperwork does one have for a non-regulated firearm gone banned? How do you prove you owned it before the ban?

I've been thinking about this as well.

The only thing I can come up with is this: They will no longer be sold in Maryland. Therefore it stands to reason that a person would have to have owned it prior to the time they were no longer being sold.

The idea seems simplistic, but it gets me through the day.

The whole build your own thing opens up a whole new can of worms, but I don't want to think about that today. I'll think about that tomorrow.

Bolts Rock · Sep 21, 2013

fabsroman said:
The only thing that will test is whether a person can receive an assault weapon after September 30th.

Your method does not test the validity of a PO because you will have completed and submitted a Form 77r before October 1, 2013 and the gun will be at the FFL before October 1, 2013.

The issues to test with a PO is:
1) What is a PO?
2) Does the firearm have to be at the dealer before October 1, 2013 for the dealer to transfer it?
3) Can a person receive an assault weapon from an FFL after September 30th ?

Those are the questions I can see with the entire PO process. With the Form 77r method, the only question is whether a person can receive the assault weapon from an FFL after September 30th. We all know what a Form 77r is and it pretty cut and dry whether it is submitted before October 1, 2013. The firearm also has to be at the dealer before October 1, 2013 for the Form 77r to be submitted prior to October 1, 2013. So, not many questions with the Form 77r process.

I can't receive it until 10/16 (maybe 10/17), I picked up a pistol 09/16.

occbrian · Sep 21, 2013

You guys are way over thinking this. Per comar. Exempted:

.02(10) Possession or transport by individual who lawfully possessed, had a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase the assault long gun or copycat weapon before October 1, 2013;

You can complete the transaction post 10/1. I understand it is a poorly written law, but MSP has been absolutely clear that you can take possession after 10/1 as long as you have a PO or competed an application to purchase before 10/1. Many FFL's flat out said they'd give you your rifle 5 years from now if that's how long it takes for your order to be completed.

Publius · Sep 21, 2013

If a post 10/1 transfer ends up in court, might want to point out this advisory in court. I know, it is the MSP saying, so it is not necessarily law, but what the heck, may help our side. The MSP pointed out in July not just that a post 10/1 transfer of a banned rifle was fine--it went further and pointed out that the banned rifle did not even have to be in the FFL's inventory by 10/1.

This advisory is not new to a number of you and has been posted on MDS:

"MSP Advisory LD-FRS-13-004
July 29, 2013
(...) a firearm dealer may sell, and a citizen may purchase and possess, an assault long gun or copycat weapon if a purchase order was issued on behalf of that citizen for the weapon before October 1, 2013, even where the dealer receives the weapon after October 1, 2013."

ShallNotInfringe · Sep 21, 2013

Request an explicit exemption in the COMAR per the AG advisory and MSP advisory.

Just to cross the t's and dot the i's. everyone has an opinion, just like they all have. ....

the law is what it is.

The AG enforces laws. Doesn't create or modify them. And is not at liberty to ignore them or pick and choose which ones to enforce

In a nation of laws of course.

Bet noone questioned the 7 day thing needing an outside boundary either. They sure found that "loophole"...

Brooklyn · Sep 21, 2013

Still going strong I see

Monday will be funday...

ShallNotInfringe · Sep 22, 2013

Here is an AG opinion on the matter that was issued on 7/23.

There are two sides to the equation when a firearm changes hands - "transfer" by the seller and "receive" by the purchaser. In legislation, each act is usually enumerated as a unique item (as in "sell, purchase, transfer, receive, possess,...") and addressed as such. If they left one out, there is usually intent to do just that. For example, they leave out "possess" in magazine size and needing a HQL.

Basically, it appears the legislature overlooked adding specific language to allow for an exclusion to "receive" with a PO or completed application surrounding the 10/1 date in their haste to get the bill through. There is, however, an express exclusion for "transfer" of in stock items after 10/1. The term "receive" is expressly prohibited in SB281 in the list of things not allowed and not included in the "does not apply to" section as an allowed act even with a PO or complete application - only "possess and transport". Thus the confusion.

In the memo, the AG introduces a new term "delivered" (which sounds an awful lot like it affirms the "transfer" side to me) and addresses the particular scenario of purchasing prior to 10/1 and having it "delivered" after 10/1. Wouldn't it have been nice if he used consistent terms like "transferred" and "received" to clear the matter up completely? I do note that he does not exonerate the act of receiving the firearm, but does repeat the language that it is legal to "possess" the firearm. If I was Getty, I would have done a go back and specifically requested the AG to reword the opinion in terms of "transfer" and "receive" to directly address the legislative issue.

Kinetic · Sep 22, 2013

Here's a hypothetical:

Late as usual, "Mr. Smith" decided in August 2013 that he wanted to purchase a somewhat rare soon to be banned "assault rifle".

He went to his local gun shop on Sept. 10th where the proprietor told him, "I don't have one but I can get it in shortly". Mr. Smith agrees, prepays in full and is given a purchase order that does not include the serial number of the firearm.

Smith gets a call on Oct. 3rd that the rifle is in and he can come in to start the paperwork. (Q. After 1 Oct. what used to be the 77r will be electronic only, correct?)

He completes the 77r and asks for and receives a new purchase order dated 3 Oct. with the serial number of the item on it. The dealer tells him to come back in a couple of weeks to take it home.

At this point, Smith is starting to have second thoughts about the legality of this transaction. Not wanting to be charged with a crime, he informs the dealer that he will not pick up until an ND comes in for the sale.

Questions:

(A) Is a PO without a serial number valid?

(B) Is a PO (with SN) written after 1 Oct. valid?

(C) Can a MD. FFL even receive an inbound shipment of a banned firearm intended for sale in MD. after Oct. 1st?

(D) Will the MSP "Not Disapprove" an application filed after 1 Oct. that has an X as firearm type? Will the electronic 77r even have that as an option?

(E) If MSP "Disapproves", who's on the hook for the money and the gun?

(F) Wouldn't it be prudent for anyone filling out a 77r for an "X" gun after Sept. 22nd to wait for an ND prior to pickup, regardless of any other circumstances? Will an ND CYA?

IANAL and I hate hypotheticals but there it is.

ShallNotInfringe · Sep 22, 2013

Kinetic said:
Here's a hypothetical:

Late as usual, "Mr. Smith" decided in August 2013 that he wanted to purchase a somewhat rare soon to be banned "assault rifle".

He went to his local gun shop on Sept. 10th where the proprietor told him, "I don't have one but I can get it in shortly". Mr. Smith agrees, prepays in full and is given a purchase order that does not include the serial number of the firearm.

Smith gets a call on Oct. 3rd that the rifle is in and he can come in to start the paperwork. (Q. After 1 Oct. what used to be the 77r will be electronic only, correct?)

He completes the 77r and asks for and receives a new purchase order dated 3 Oct. with the serial number of the item on it. The dealer tells him to come back in a couple of weeks to take it home.

At this point, Smith is starting to have second thoughts about the legality of this transaction. Not wanting to be charged with a crime, he informs the dealer that he will not pick up until an ND comes in for the sale.

Questions:

(A) Is a PO without a serial number valid?

(B) Is a PO (with SN) written after 1 Oct. valid?

(C) Can a MD. FFL even receive an inbound shipment of a banned firearm intended for sale in MD. after Oct. 1st?

(D) Will the MSP "Not Disapprove" an application filed after 1 Oct. that has an X as firearm type? Will the electronic 77r even have that as an option?

(E) If MSP "Disapproves", who's on the hook for the money and the gun?

(F) Wouldn't it be prudent for anyone filling out a 77r for an "X" gun after Sept. 22nd to wait for an ND prior to pickup, regardless of any other circumstances? Will an ND CYA?

IANAL and I hate hypotheticals but there it is.

When did the FFL get the firearm? Before 10/1 or after 10/1 in your scenario? Why is there a new PO as opposed to it being a "receipt"?

occbrian · Sep 22, 2013

The MSP has never said that a SN is required on the PO or that you even have to pay for part of it. The law includes "application to purchase. "

For example, on 9/30 I'll be ordering a couple of rifles from LaRue. I wil get a PO without payment and without SN's. I won't get the rifles for probably 2 years.

FFL told me he will delved the rifles.

Maybe I will be your test case

Kinetic · Sep 22, 2013

ShallNotInfringe said:
When did the FFL get the firearm? Before 10/1 or after 10/1 in your scenario?

For this discussion, let's say after 10/1.

Why is there a new PO as opposed to it being a "receipt"?

Good question. There can only be one PO, I suppose.

swinokur · Sep 22, 2013

Kinetic said:
Here's a hypothetical:

Late as usual, "Mr. Smith" decided in August 2013 that he wanted to purchase a somewhat rare soon to be banned "assault rifle".

He went to his local gun shop on Sept. 10th where the proprietor told him, "I don't have one but I can get it in shortly". Mr. Smith agrees, prepays in full and is given a purchase order that does not include the serial number of the firearm.

Smith gets a call on Oct. 3rd that the rifle is in and he can come in to start the paperwork. (Q. After 1 Oct. what used to be the 77r will be electronic only, correct?)

He completes the 77r and asks for and receives a new purchase order dated 3 Oct. with the serial number of the item on it. The dealer tells him to come back in a couple of weeks to take it home.

At this point, Smith is starting to have second thoughts about the legality of this transaction. Not wanting to be charged with a crime, he informs the dealer that he will not pick up until an ND comes in for the sale.

Questions:

(A) Is a PO without a serial number valid?

Why wouldn't it be? No definition of a PO from MSP as of now

(B) Is a PO (with SN) written after 1 Oct. valid?

As I read it no. MSP says it must be pre Oct.1

(C) Can a MD. FFL even receive an inbound shipment of a banned firearm intended for sale in MD. after Oct. 1st?

According to MSP, yes.

(D) Will the MSP "Not Disapprove" an application filed after 1 Oct. that has an X as firearm type? Will the electronic 77r even have that as an option?

According to MSP, pre Oct 1 PO will be all that is required. No idea on 77r

(E) If MSP "Disapproves", who's on the hook for the money and the gun?

Depends on the reason for the disapproval.I would think you would be.

(F) Wouldn't it be prudent for anyone filling out a 77r for an "X" gun after Sept. 22nd to wait for an ND prior to pickup, regardless of any other circumstances? Will an ND CYA?

Good question

IANAL and I hate hypotheticals but there it is.

IANAL either. Just my own read of 281 and what MSP has said at the dealer meetings. YMMV.

Kinetic · Sep 22, 2013

Thanks, guys.

This is a great forum.

Bolts Rock · Sep 22, 2013

Kinetic said:
Here's a hypothetical:

Late as usual, "Mr. Smith" decided in August 2013 that he wanted to purchase a somewhat rare soon to be banned "assault rifle".

He went to his local gun shop on Sept. 10th where the proprietor told him, "I don't have one but I can get it in shortly". Mr. Smith agrees, prepays in full and is given a purchase order that does not include the serial number of the firearm.

Smith gets a call on Oct. 3rd that the rifle is in and he can come in to start the paperwork. (Q. After 1 Oct. what used to be the 77r will be electronic only, correct?)

He completes the 77r and asks for and receives a new purchase order dated 3 Oct. with the serial number of the item on it. The dealer tells him to come back in a couple of weeks to take it home.

"New" PO could be a problem.

At this point, Smith is starting to have second thoughts about the legality of this transaction. Not wanting to be charged with a crime, he informs the dealer that he will not pick up until an ND comes in for the sale.

Questions:

(A) Is a PO without a serial number valid?

Yes, in the business world a PO for a serialized item to be delivered in the future cannot have a number that does not yet exist or is not yet known on it. I have never once seen a PO with serial number on it and I've been dealing with them for 30 years.

(B) Is a PO (with SN) written after 1 Oct. valid?

No, the law states "prior to Oct. 1".

(C) Can a MD. FFL even receive an inbound shipment of a banned firearm intended for sale in MD. after Oct. 1st?

Yes, see the law.

(D) Will the MSP "Not Disapprove" an application filed after 1 Oct. that has an X as firearm type? Will the electronic 77r even have that as an option?

Assuming ND would be a go from the background check then MSP must per the law issue an ND.

(E) If MSP "Disapproves", who's on the hook for the money and the gun?

Per the law the buyer is on the hook for any money already paid, the balance due is between the buyer and the dealer/vendor.

(F) Wouldn't it be prudent for anyone filling out a 77r for an "X" gun after Sept. 22nd to wait for an ND prior to pickup, regardless of any other circumstances? Will an ND CYA?

Up to you personally but we also need to see what happens Monday.

IANAL and I hate hypotheticals but there it is.

FWIW- in the business world a PO is a contract to purchase a specific item, it can be paid in full upon ordering, a deposit can be paid with balance due upon delivery or various terms such as net 30 or net 90. A PO will have a unique number assigned to it for audit purposes, that number will also be on any packing slip or receipt. A packing slip with the item is proof the item was delivered to the buyer, it is not a receipt for funds however unless the item was paid in full when ordered; it will have any serial numbers for serialized items on it. A receipt for payment proves that payment has been received by the seller and will reference the order number to close the order process, it may or may not list the serial number; it cannot list the serial number if paid in full at time of order as that won't be known until the item is pulled from stock to ship (NOTE- this obviously does not apply for any serialized item you buy face to face at a shop as they will have the item in stock and on hand so they will know the serial number).

Kinetic · Sep 22, 2013

Thanks, Bolts.

I somehow got wrapped around the axle with the SN and the PO.

After further thought, when you go to a car dealer and order a vehicle built to spec, there is obviously no VIN number on the purchase order but it is still valid.

Still might be a good idea to wait for a ND as we enter uncharted waters, though.

Bolts Rock · Sep 22, 2013

Kinetic said:
Thanks, Bolts.

I somehow got wrapped around the axle with the SN and the PO.

After further thought, when you go to a car dealer and order a vehicle built to spec, there is obviously no VIN number on the purchase order but it is still valid.

Still might be a good idea to wait for a ND as we enter uncharted waters, though.

You're welcome Kinetic.

I was only half caffeinated when I wrote it, I have seen PO's with S/N's on them but only to authorize payment for a repair of capital equipment. But that's very different than a PO to initially purchase an item. To me that repair authorization PO is part of the repair order.

As I said, we may know more on the ND thing Monday.

JailHouseLiar · Sep 22, 2013

occbrian said:
You guys are way over thinking this. Per comar. Exempted:

.02(10) Possession or transport by individual who lawfully possessed, had a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase the assault long gun or copycat weapon before October 1, 2013;

You can complete the transaction post 10/1. I understand it is a poorly written law, but MSP has been absolutely clear that you can take possession after 10/1 as long as you have a PO or competed an application to purchase before 10/1. Many FFL's flat out said they'd give you your rifle 5 years from now if that's how long it takes for your order to be completed.

That's the way I am reading it, but I'm no lawyer. I think we can all agree it's a huge mess.

fabsroman · Sep 22, 2013

occbrian said:
The MSP has never said that a SN is required on the PO or that you even have to pay for part of it. The law includes "application to purchase. "

For example, on 9/30 I'll be ordering a couple of rifles from LaRue. I wil get a PO without payment and without SN's. I won't get the rifles for probably 2 years.

FFL told me he will delved the rifles.

Maybe I will be your test case

"Application to Purchase" is the Form 77r.

Bolts Rock · Sep 22, 2013

fabsroman said:
"Application to Purchase" is the Form 77r.

.02(10) Possession or transport by individual who lawfully possessed, had a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase the assault long gun or copycat weapon before October 1, 2013;

OR is the key word there, "or completed an application to purchase".

any word on dealer policy for non handgun reg purchases going into the deadline.

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