Non-Resident DC Concealed Carry Permit

Kanly said:

So I'll happily admit I can be dense sometimes but I don't see question 20 requiring you to have a permit from somewhere else. All Question 20 asks is do you have a residence or place of business in the US AND are licensed to carry by another state.

And if you answer yes to that then they want proof of that license to carry and proof of residence/business.

I don't see that requiring you to have another state's permit before DC will issue you one.

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Kanly said:

Where do you see DC saying you must have a permit from somewhere before they will issue you one.

Question 20 asks if you have a permit they would like to see it.


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Kanly said:

I corrected your incorrect interpretation and comprehension of the statute.

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Kanly said:

Incorrect again

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Kanly said:

Be as snarky, blustery and buffoonish as you want. It still will not change the fact that you are wrong. You continue to spew out incorrect information and when challenged on it you just double down on your ignorance.

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Kanly said:

Maybe things were different in the May Issue Era. I don't know.
In the Shall Issue Era a non-resident applicant does not need a permit.
It's great that you won't do the research for someone here -- hopefully in the real world no one actually relies on your research either because so far its pretty atrocious.

Again, you do not actually know what you are talking about -- in fact you are 100% wrong. But keep telling us how right you are.

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Kanly said:

I guess you missed the OR between (2) and (3).
It's not the opinion of some on this thread.
It is the actual correct interpretation of the statute -- something that seems to continuously escape you.

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Kanly said:

Sage954 you did not slip through the cracks.

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Kanly said:

They may give out wrong information sometimes but they are always pleasant to deal with.

Your continued insistence on an incorrect interpretation of the law is frankly astonishing.

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Kanly said:

There is no requirement for a non-resident DC applicant to already posess another jurisdiction's permit.

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Kanly said:

Last post for now.

If I felt like making a poll maybe we could make this more interesting.

Anyway:

Since remote learning seems to be the item of the day, lets have some fun:

The correct answer to the following statement is yes or no:

"it would be correct to say that non-dc residents do not need to have a ccw permit from somewhere else before applying for a DC permit."

Everyone can vote!

Maybe later I will post the answer from the only person that matters.

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Your first post was correct.

Without posting anything to the contrary other than your words you offer no foundation for your position other than the "or" in the statute. So what does that "or" mean? We can already ascertain from the rest of the statute that you must live or have a business in DC or have a permit from another jurisdiction (does not say your own) and then why do you think that they put the other "or" in there? Surplus of letters? Or does it describe how residents who live in states that don't issue permits (think Vermont) obtain the ability to carry a concealed pistol in DC?

The Giffords Law Center (hardly a conservative or right leaning organization but they are lawyers) sums it up in just that way.

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/concealed-carry-in-washington-dc/

Pertinent information from the article here:

Reciprocity

The District does not recognize permits issued from any other jurisdiction.9 However, a person possessing a valid concealed carry permit from another jurisdiction, or a state that does not issue concealed carry permits, may apply to the District for a concealed carry permit.10

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And here:

Applicants for a concealed carry permit in the District must:

Live or work within the District of Columbia. If the person does not live or work in the District, the permit applicant must live or work in another state and possess a valid concealed carry permit from that state. If an applicant resides in a state that does not issue concealed carry permits, the applicant may apply for a permit provided he or she meets the eligibility criteria for a District resident; and
Be a suitable person to be permitted.3

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But those are just a bunch of lefty lawyers, we can't believe what they say, right? Well let's go check in on George Lyon who writes here:

https://www.arsenalattorneys.com/fi...lication-procedures-and-training-requirements

Application procedures are relatively simple. Applicants must fill out a three page form available on line from the Metropolitan Police Department, which can be found at this link. The form can be filled out on line and printed. Applicants must take the form in person to MPD headquarters RM 3077, 300 Indiana Avenue, NW, Washington, DC 20001, Monday through Friday between the hours of 9 am and 5 pm. Hint: don't arrive after 4 pm and expect to be served. Bring two forms of identification. If you are not a DC resident, you must provide proof of the issuance of a carry permit from another jurisdiction. It need not be your home state.

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Now if you want to continue to argue with George you are arguing with someone who was partly responsible for why DC is Shall Issue but you do you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoveman
Originally Posted by Kanly View Post
So I'll happily admit I can be dense sometimes but I don't see question 20 requiring you to have a permit from somewhere else. All Question 20 asks is do you have a residence or place of business in the US AND are licensed to carry by another state.

And if you answer yes to that then they want proof of that license to carry and proof of residence/business.

Stoveman said:

Your first post was correct.

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Oh I am slain! (Bonus points to first person who can give the origin of that quote.)

Is it possible for me to ever recover from you bolding a self-deprecating post of mine?

Should I go slink off somewhere and regret the day I ever questioned Stoveman?


The funny thing is I almost wasn't going to post in this thread -- I don't even have a DC carry permit.

I read the statute and the application and I didn't see the non-resident permit requirement so all I did was offer up an opinion and my logic for what I saw the statute saying.

You made the choice to respond as a pompous blowhard to everyone who didn't agree with you.

You are 100% wrong.

You haven't doubled down on your ignorance though -- we're now at octouple levels or more.

Go back and re-read the other stuff you bolded -- and then read the words that come before the bolded parts

My forum software skills aren't that great (maybe you can teach me how to make my posts have better formatting) but I'll help you out and capitalize and underline the words that you continuously either ignore or cannot comprehend the meaning of:

Originally Posted by Stoveman
Quote:
The last five questions on the application (bolded mine):

IF YOU ANSWER YES to any of the next five questions, you must attach the additional documentation as described on the Instructions form.
16. □ Yes □ No Are you seeking to register a pistol concurrently with this application?
17. □ Yes □ No Do you currently suffer – or have you suffered in the past five years – from any mental illness or condition that creates a substantial risk that you are a danger
to yourself or others?
18. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide residence in the District of Columbia?
19. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide place of business in the District of Columbia?
20. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide residence or place of business in the United States and are licensed to carry a concealed pistol by another State?

IF then MUST Is that conditional really incomprehensible to you?

Nowhere does it say a NO answer on Question 20 will prohibit you from getting a DC permit.

I'm glad you mentioned George Lyon!!! (Really I am!!!)
He was scheduled to make an appearance in this thread even before you furiously searched the web for something -- anything -- that might give you the slightest hope that you are not 100% wrong. I don't think he'll end up helping you though

As for Giffords: their DC assault weapons definition page was really helpful to me as i was navigating DC code to get a Modern Sporting Rifle approved.
Was much easier to copy and paste from them than DC's pages. Other than that I wouldn't rely on them for much.


More to come later!

Stoveman said:

Now if you want to continue to argue with George you are arguing with someone who was partly responsible for why DC is Shall Issue but you do you.

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Thanks for the advice! This is the only helpful thing you have posted in this thread. I will continue to "you do you." You can do the same and see how it works out for you.

Like I said: George is scheduled to make an appearance in this thread.

And, even better, there's another special quest slated to appear.

Stoveman said:

Keep looking on that web site.


https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/dc-gun-laws/#recStates

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Stoveman said:

Your first post was correct.

Without posting anything to the contrary other than your words you offer no foundation for your position other than the "or" in the statute. So what does that "or" mean? We can already ascertain from the rest of the statute that you must live or have a business in DC or have a permit from another jurisdiction (does not say your own) and then why do you think that they put the other "or" in there? Surplus of letters? Or does it describe how residents who live in states that don't issue permits (think Vermont) obtain the ability to carry a concealed pistol in DC?

The Giffords Law Center (hardly a conservative or right leaning organization but they are lawyers) sums it up in just that way.

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/state-laws/concealed-carry-in-washington-dc/

Pertinent information from the article here:




And here:




But those are just a bunch of lefty lawyers, we can't believe what they say, right? Well let's go check in on George Lyon who writes here:

https://www.arsenalattorneys.com/fi...lication-procedures-and-training-requirements



Now if you want to continue to argue with George you are arguing with someone who was partly responsible for why DC is Shall Issue but you do you.

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I think they are just collecting data, it says on the form that 'if yes' attach the documents for the other CCW information.

it doesn't say anything about 'these are required'

you didn't respond to my other links, you just keep quoting the DC form. I am not going to respond any longer if you continue to just repost the same information.

You do know what shall issue means, right?

JoeyBimmer said:

I think they are just collecting data, it says on the form that 'if yes' attach the documents for the other CCW information.

it doesn't say anything about 'these are required'

you didn't respond to my other links, you just keep quoting the DC form. I am not going to respond any longer if you continue to just repost the same information.

You do know what shall issue means, right?

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Pennsylvania and South Carolina are shall issue states but NR have specific requirements to meet before they are issued permits.

If you apply for a NR DC permit, do you have to register the gun you plan to carry at the same time, or can you just get the permit.

How likely are they to grant training and live fire exemptions? (I know you still have to do the DC law part).

If you can document a fist full of NR permits and their associated training, plus documentation of years of live fire range time (countless national matches), certified RSO, might they give the exception?

Been thinking about doing this but haven't yet.

Thanks.

mac1_131 said:

If you apply for a NR DC permit, do you have to register the gun you plan to carry at the same time, or can you just get the permit.

How likely are they to grant training and live fire exemptions? (I know you still have to do the DC law part).

If you can document a fist full of NR permits and their associated training, plus documentation of years of live fire range time (countless national matches), certified RSO, might they give the exception?

Been thinking about doing this but haven't yet.

Thanks.

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My experience is that DC has tightened things up on the live fire portion. On my initial DC permit, and my first renewal, DC accepted my Maryland live fire. On my 2nd DC renewal, 10/19, they would not accept my Maryland live fire. I had already completed the DC law portion and had to go back and complete the DC live fire. I spoke directly to the officer in charge of the permit process and he confirmed that they would not accept Maryland or any other states live fire.

bigmanindc said:

Pennsylvania and South Carolina are shall issue states but NR have specific requirements to meet before they are issued permits.

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Yes, I have seen that. I dug into the PA one because my dad lives there, but they don't issue a permit unless you have one elsewhere. That is a case of shall issue, but only as a resident.

mac1_131 said:

If you apply for a NR DC permit, do you have to register the gun you plan to carry at the same time, or can you just get the permit.

How likely are they to grant training and live fire exemptions? (I know you still have to do the DC law part).

If you can document a fist full of NR permits and their associated training, plus documentation of years of live fire range time (countless national matches), certified RSO, might they give the exception?

Been thinking about doing this but haven't yet.

Thanks.

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Reading the literature I posted it sounds like permit first register gun you intend to carry once you have your permit. I wouldn't do it sooner, in case for some reason you do not get your DC CCW

JoeyBimmer said:

Yes, I have seen that. I dug into the PA one because my dad lives there, but they don't issue a permit unless you have one elsewhere. That is a case of shall issue, but only as a resident.



Reading the literature I posted it sounds like permit first register gun you intend to carry once you have your permit. I wouldn't do it sooner, in case for some reason you do not get your DC CCW

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The "one elsewhere" must be from your home state.

Kanly said:

18. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide residence in the District of Columbia?
19. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide place of business in the District of Columbia?
20. □ Yes □ No Do you have a bona fide residence or place of business in the United States and are licensed to carry a concealed pistol by another State?

IF then MUST Is that conditional really incomprehensible to you?

Nowhere does it say a NO answer on Question 20 will prohibit you from getting a DC permit.

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You are right that it doesn't say a NO answer to Question 20 will prohibit you., but do you really think if you answer NO to Questions 18, 19, and 20, that you will get a permit?

I don't.

KevinK said:

You are right that it doesn't say a NO answer to Question 20 will prohibit you., but do you really think if you answer NO to Questions 18, 19, and 20, that you will get a permit?

I don't.

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But DC is Shall issue, so I don't get why they wouldn't just issue a permit if you meet all the conditions. Everything is point that way, except for some people on a gun forum.

Maybe if I begin to do Door Dash and Uber eats in DC I will apply for one, that would be a solid justification to carry, in my own mind, not in the eyes of the government.

JoeyBimmer said:

But DC is Shall issue, so I don't get why they wouldn't just issue a permit if you meet all the conditions. Everything is point that way, except for some people on a gun forum.

Maybe if I begin to do Door Dash and Uber eats in DC I will apply for one, that would be a solid justification to carry, in my own mind, not in the eyes of the government.

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You no longer need a "reason" in DC...

You did when they were "may" issue, like MD, but since they went "shall" issue, the reason no longer matters...

JoeyBimmer said:

But DC is Shall issue, so I don't get why they wouldn't just issue a permit if you meet all the conditions. Everything is point that way, except for some people on a gun forum.

Maybe if I begin to do Door Dash and Uber eats in DC I will apply for one, that would be a solid justification to carry, in my own mind, not in the eyes of the government.

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JMintzer said:

You no longer need a "reason" in DC...

You did when they were "may" issue, like MD, but since they went "shall" issue, the reason no longer matters...

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It's easier to call DC Shall Issue instead of explaining it. They are still technically May Issue but they are not enforcing their version of Good and Substantial.

Stoveman said:

It's easier to call DC Shall Issue instead of explaining it. They are still technically May Issue but they are not enforcing their version of Good and Substantial.

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No they're not. They lost in court and chose not to appeal...

JMintzer said:

No they're not. They lost in court and chose not to appeal...

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They did not choose to appeal, correct, but they still have a stipulation for non residents. If you have another states's permit then they are effectively Shall Issue. Not unlike PA which is Shall Issue for residents but if you are a NR you have to have your home state permit. PA could reasonably be called May Issue for non residents.

Kanly said:

In the Shall Issue Era a non-resident applicant does not need a permit.

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Where is the the FUD that a non resident needs a permit in their state or anywhere to get a DC CCPL even coming from??
No such requirement is in the code, no such requirement is in the application, no such requirement is voiced by MPD when you make you application, and PLENTY pf people from Maryland with no Maryland carry permit get DC CCPLs.

Kanly said:

The correct answer to the following statement is yes or no:

"it would be correct to say that non-dc residents do not need to have a ccw permit from somewhere else before applying for a DC permit."

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Yes, for non dc residents who are residents of the United States.

Stoveman said:

It's easier to call DC Shall Issue instead of explaining it. They are still technically May Issue but they are not enforcing their version of Good and Substantial.

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This is utterly false. They are technically, de jure and de facto: shall issue

rascal said:

This is utterly false. They are technically, de jure and de facto: shall issue

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And yet still have regulations regarding NR permits, as does PA. See the writing of George Lyon upthread.

Stoveman said:

And yet still have regulations regarding NR permits, as does PA. See the writing of George Lyon upthread.

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Please don't try to school me, I am certain I know a lot more about the process than you do.

Your bringing up Pennsylvania situation shows you do not know the subject. I am a DC resident who has had a PA Wear and Carry for years.

Pennsylvania has a specific thing on requiring home state resident permit because of a unique set of circumstances: being surrounded by virtually all may (no) issue anti-2A states like Md,NJ, NY. And Pennsylvania residents with carry permits get felony hits for inadvertently driving five feet into those neighboring states, so even the adamant 2A supporters there don't want to give people from those places permits for PA

I have a pal who is a player in GOA in PA who says "**** giving NJ, NY and Md residents any non-res Pennsylvania permits."

Where is ANY citation you can provide that DC is like Pennsylvania and would say require Maryland residents to have a resident Maryland permit to get a PA one? You can't -- because you don't understand the law itself nor the reason for it.

And shall vs may does not have to do with "regulations" but with a specific legal requirement to have a reason to carry.

Things like other license treatment, res v non res treatment, training, what prior crimes or arrests you can be denied on are all regulations but they don't go whatsoever to anything anyone who knows the subject defines may vs shall on. the presence of regulations in general is not how the terms "may issue" and "shall issue" are determined, but a specific issue of a requirement to demonstrate a need

No. It is nothing like PA, PA does not require non resident to demonstrate a need (the difference between shall and may).

And DC has not and does not require non residents to have a license elsewhere. I have members of my own family who live in Maryland, have their residence and drivers license in Maryland, , have no Maryland carry license, no other license, and have a dc CCPL.

Cite the code that you think requires you to have a license anywhere else. You can NOT offer such a citation, because the code does not exist. You are are omitting the "or."