blade steel question

[rob b]

anyone know the difference between cold steel carbon V and san mai japan steel
I own a few carbon V steel knives and love them

a guy at work has a cold steel master hunter, I would like to buy but know nothing of the knife it says it is made in japan
thanks for the help

 

[alucard0822]

I had a Cold steel folder in carbon V, about as good as carbon steel gets, held a good edge, sharpened relatively easy and was tough, but it ended up in a box somewhere, probably after I got something I liked better. It is an out of production steel, allegedly a bit better than 1095, decent for a knife as long as rust isn't a huge concern. There are some that love san mai, I think it's an expensive gimmick, a modest AUS8/VG-1 steel in between 2 layers of cheap, but tough and rust resistant 420 pretty much solves a problem that hasn't existed in a long time, and is outperformed by good stainless.

 

[rob b]

he is asking $50 for it and it is like new with the factory edge
should I buy or pass ?

 

[NickZac]

The short response is that Carbon V is better than any other metal used by Cold Steel to date...it's better than san mai, and much less expensive. It blows something like AUS-8 out of the water. CV blades have gotten expensive since being discontinued...if you can get it for a good price, jump on it...it you can't get a good price, it may be worth considering a fixed blade such as the ZT0100, which is made with CPM-3V and is one of the or the finest blade steels to date, and it can be had for under $200.

The long response... must consider what Carbon V is, and a little background info to determine if it's worth purchasing. There is a misconception on exactly Carbon V steel is...the common belief that it is essentially 1095 steel is incorrect...it has many similarities, but it is not completely the same. In essence, MOST Carbon V is 0170-6. 0170-6 is essentially an incremental improvement upon 1095 with the use of Vanadium and (in some applications) Nickel. Like 1095, the biggest determinate of how 'good' of a steel is comes down to the hardening process. Unlike san mai, a Carbon V blade is cut in a traditional fashion (with a water or laser cutter, most likely), and then hardened...on the other end, san mai uses a forging and folding process and what is used to make san mai, how it is created, and how it is heat-treated varies dramatically and so it's properties vary by maker, sometimes even by batch. There's a *controversy here, tho...

Carbon V not a new steel as it's been around over half a century, under more different names than virtually any other steel...but it's still popular and used on many custom knives. When hardened correctly, it gives solid performance that is superior to 1095 (which is in and of itself an excellent steel) and it outperforms most of the premium and super stainless steels. Carbon V is essentially the same thing as "CV steel" used by Case and Camillus for decades...with the C being Carbon and V being Vanadium (for greater wear resistance=tougher steel, and greater ease in sharpening). What is very special about this steel is that is was developed specifically for knife blades, and so it was created to have properties one wants with a knife blade, such as ease of sharpening. The biggest advancement, through Vanadium, is that is makes sharpening a hell of a lot easier...for a field knife/bushcraft knife, this is a huge advantage. This allows the CV steel to be hardened more while still allowed ease of crude field sharpening. Newer blade steels, such as S35VN, invented to replace the previous S30V steel, more of less adds Vanadium to makes a tougher and easier to sharpen blade.

The maker of Carbon V/CV/0170-6/etc. went under a while ago now, and supply has seen ups and downs. To my understanding, only one batch was made by a new company after the original maker went down, which Case, Camillus, and Cold Steel ordered a ton of via one big run. Cold Steel discontinued Carbon V most likely because the stock from last bath ran out. Carbon V, Cold Steel knives are solid performers, and have recently fetched a super premium because of their rarity. I think they are better than san mai steel and they have all the properties one wants for a hard-usage fixed blade.

It is also worth noting that some K-Bars are made of 0170-6 and NOT 1095. These knives are superior to their 1095 counterparts.

*The controversy?...there are debates that suggest Cold Steel has used multiple blade steels as Carbon V...more of this is speculation, but there is some evidence suggesting they may have changed to a similar steel for some point in time. While 0170-6 seems the most common by far, there is suggestion that O-1 and suggestions that other carbon steels similar to 1095 + a bit have been used. 50100-B (which is almost identical to 0170-6) has been suggested through spark tests. My Carbon V blades are without a doubt 0170-6 because they hold a better edge than 1095 and is ridiculously easier to sharpen.

The Cold Steel knives in CV have made major gains in pricing since they were stopped, partly because it was Cold Steel's finest steel, and they currently do not use a steel with the same overall properties of CV. They are damned fine knives and people want them. So is it worth buying? It depends completely on the price.

The ZT 0100 fixed blade can be had for under $200 from sellers of factory blems...and it's CPM-3V, which blows virtually everything else out of the water and IMHO it's the finest cutlery steel to date. CPM-3V gives high-speed steel hardness, shock-proof steel impact resistance and toughness, and semi-stainless resistance to oxidation...and while it can have high-speed tool steel hardness, it's a very easy steel to sharpen with even the crudest of sharpening tools). If you can get the CS in CV for less, it's prolly worth it. If the price is still high, the ZT in 3V is an incredible bargain and performer as words cannot describe how amazing CPM-3V is...
http://www.knifecenter.com/item/ZT0...5-34-inch-CPM3V-Steel-Blade-Black-G10-Handles

 

[hvymax]

There are not many new steels! Various hardneses etc and misc compositions but this Rockwell hardness this and that charpy hardness that means nothing. It is all in what goes out the door. Heat treatment and proper tempering mean the most in any metal product.

 

[NickZac]

There are not many new steels! Various hardneses etc and misc compositions but this Rockwell hardness this and that charpy hardness that means nothing. It is all in what goes out the door. Heat treatment and proper tempering mean the most in any metal product.

I agree with you 100% that hardening is the most important...a good 440C blade can bring great performance and crappy 440C is a nightmare.

However, the knife's application is equally important IMHO.

A chopper/big bushcraft needs less hardening and additives that favor toughness over edge retention. Additives to make sharpening easier is important too. On the other hand, a folding knife intended mainly for cutting with a smaller blade often does better with thinner blades, different grinds, more of a 'needle' tip, higher hardness at the expense of toughness, and possibly the addition of stainless additives. A pure defensive folder will likely benefit from very favored toughness with far lesser hardness, etc. So I look at importance as not just steel and hardening, but also the application of what the knife will be used for.

I would argue that, as a general rule, super steels with incredible hardness levels, such as ZDP-189, are generally poorly-suited for knife blades that get frequent (and especially harsh) usage.

 

[hvymax]

Hardness and Toughness are 2 different things. Quenched carbon steel is as hard as glass. You have to temper it to make it use able.

 

[smokey]

The short response is that Carbon V is better than any other metal used by Cold Steel to date...it's better than san mai, and much less expensive. It blows something like AUS-8 out of the water. CV blades have gotten expensive since being discontinued...if you can get it for a good price, jump on it...it you can't get a good price, it may be worth considering a fixed blade such as the ZT0100, which is made with CPM-3V and is one of the or the finest blade steels to date, and it can be had for under $200.

The long response... must consider what Carbon V is, and a little background info to determine if it's worth purchasing. There is a misconception on exactly Carbon V steel is...the common belief that it is essentially 1095 steel is incorrect...it has many similarities, but it is not completely the same. In essence, MOST Carbon V is 0170-6. 0170-6 is essentially an incremental improvement upon 1095 with the use of Vanadium and (in some applications) Nickel. Like 1095, the biggest determinate of how 'good' of a steel is comes down to the hardening process. Unlike san mai, a Carbon V blade is cut in a traditional fashion (with a water or laser cutter, most likely), and then hardened...on the other end, san mai uses a forging and folding process and what is used to make san mai, how it is created, and how it is heat-treated varies dramatically and so it's properties vary by maker, sometimes even by batch. There's a *controversy here, tho...

Carbon V not a new steel as it's been around over half a century, under more different names than virtually any other steel...but it's still popular and used on many custom knives. When hardened correctly, it gives solid performance that is superior to 1095 (which is in and of itself an excellent steel) and it outperforms most of the premium and super stainless steels. Carbon V is essentially the same thing as "CV steel" used by Case and Camillus for decades...with the C being Carbon and V being Vanadium (for greater wear resistance=tougher steel, and greater ease in sharpening). What is very special about this steel is that is was developed specifically for knife blades, and so it was created to have properties one wants with a knife blade, such as ease of sharpening. The biggest advancement, through Vanadium, is that is makes sharpening a hell of a lot easier...for a field knife/bushcraft knife, this is a huge advantage. This allows the CV steel to be hardened more while still allowed ease of crude field sharpening. Newer blade steels, such as S35VN, invented to replace the previous S30V steel, more of less adds Vanadium to makes a tougher and easier to sharpen blade.

The maker of Carbon V/CV/0170-6/etc. went under a while ago now, and supply has seen ups and downs. To my understanding, only one batch was made by a new company after the original maker went down, which Case, Camillus, and Cold Steel ordered a ton of via one big run. Cold Steel discontinued Carbon V most likely because the stock from last bath ran out. Carbon V, Cold Steel knives are solid performers, and have recently fetched a super premium because of their rarity. I think they are better than san mai steel and they have all the properties one wants for a hard-usage fixed blade.

It is also worth noting that some K-Bars are made of 0170-6 and NOT 1095. These knives are superior to their 1095 counterparts.

*The controversy?...there are debates that suggest Cold Steel has used multiple blade steels as Carbon V...more of this is speculation, but there is some evidence suggesting they may have changed to a similar steel for some point in time. While 0170-6 seems the most common by far, there is suggestion that O-1 and suggestions that other carbon steels similar to 1095 + a bit have been used. 50100-B (which is almost identical to 0170-6) has been suggested through spark tests. My Carbon V blades are without a doubt 0170-6 because they hold a better edge than 1095 and is ridiculously easier to sharpen.

The Cold Steel knives in CV have made major gains in pricing since they were stopped, partly because it was Cold Steel's finest steel, and they currently do not use a steel with the same overall properties of CV. They are damned fine knives and people want them. So is it worth buying? It depends completely on the price.

The ZT 0100 fixed blade can be had for under $200 from sellers of factory blems...and it's CPM-3V, which blows virtually everything else out of the water and IMHO it's the finest cutlery steel to date. CPM-3V gives high-speed steel hardness, shock-proof steel impact resistance and toughness, and semi-stainless resistance to oxidation...and while it can have high-speed tool steel hardness, it's a very easy steel to sharpen with even the crudest of sharpening tools). If you can get the CS in CV for less, it's prolly worth it. If the price is still high, the ZT in 3V is an incredible bargain and performer as words cannot describe how amazing CPM-3V is...
http://www.knifecenter.com/item/ZT0...5-34-inch-CPM3V-Steel-Blade-Black-G10-Handles

Sooo, it's BS CS isn't making CV AK's, so just get a ZT in 3V and you'll be OK?

 

[NickZac]

Sooo, it's BS CS isn't making CV AK's, so just get a ZT in 3V and you'll be OK?

It's kind of a toss up...Carbon V has been copied and there is some debate on forums if CS has used different steels. My CV blades are without a doubt Carbon Vanadium, so I would look at the accusations made against CS as possible but not certain. If CS is making a new run of AK's in Carbon Vanadium, chances are they came about some extra steel from Case/Camillus. Makers do this all the time as steel gets lost, found, traded, swapped, etc. However, if they are, there are going to be a lot of fakes of it and some are well-done. Users of Carbon Vanadium really like it...myself included...
http://www.coldsteel.com/Fake-Trail-Master.aspx

I've seen fakes first hand that are virtually impossible to tell the difference until you use it and realize the blade is poorly hardened 440A.

Carbon V blades have fetched a premium and that's IMO the biggest reason I said checking other blades may be worth it. I've seen Carbon V blades with a MSRP of $80-130 sell for over $300...when the price goes that high, looking around may be worthwhile.

Depending on the application, another line may be best-suited. Users who have a chance to use the ZT in 3V quickly become die-hard fans of CPM-3V. The other reason I like ZT and Kershaw fixed blades is because there are a ton of "factory blems" on the market in which a user can save as much as 50% on SRP...these blems are just markings on the finish and given fixed blades get beaten on, the blems are IMHO one of the best ways one can go, regardless of brand. Given the ZT in a blem allows users to get a steel once only used on customs costing well over a grand, it's a knife that suits many people very well. The blade shape and grind is excellent as well, so IMO it's worth checking out (especially given you can go to KnifeCenter and they'll let you hold it).