RATE AKM Builders

[fivepointstar]

Rating Scale 1= Trash: 10=Izhmash Quality

I'd like to know you're experiences with all the AKM builders on the market. If you owned a AKM build or had experiences with that build please rate them. Several of the builders I can think of off the top of my head are:



Allied Armament
American Tactical Intl. (ATI)
Armory USA (AUSA)
Arsenal Saiga (SGL)
Arsenal (Bulgarian-SLR)
Century Arms Intl.
Interarms
Inter Ordinance Inc. (IO Inc.)
Lancaster Arms
Legion Saiga
M+M Inc (Colorado Guns Sales)
Norinco (386)
Red Jacket Firearms (RJF)
Saiga (Izhmash)
Tennessee Guns Intl. (TGI)
Unitied ARms Corp.
Vector Arms
VEPR
Zastava-Yugo/Czech Republic builds

If there are local builds or other builds please list them and add them to the list. I know MidCounty builds, Clandestine, and there is a local builder in Frederick. I'm looking forward to your feedback.


Things to consider
accessories
ergonomics
Fit
Finish of metal parts
Finish of stock
accuracy
reliability
ETC ETC!!

 

[fivepointstar]

Based on my collection and what I've handled

Arsenal (Bulgarian-SLR) = 10 - just a prefect weapon.

Century Arms Intl. = 6.5

Norinco (386) = 8 I wish the finish was more desirable

I have a Romanian AKM built by Jaybeez.....I RATE his build a 8!!! Very accurate AK, one of my favorite rifles in my collection!!

 

[Nemesis]

im not sure i can think of any 10s...not even saigas...but here we go.

vepr - 8

saiga - 8

SGL line - 9

...what? i only deal with ruskie stuff...so dont expect me to rate any of the others.

why my ratings?

the veprs are super solid, and have a reputation for being accurate lead slingers...but this all comes at the cost of weight, so i have to take away from them there. also you have the funky stock system they use...dont like that at all.

the saigas...first up, their cheap, the actual rifle itself is built damn good but the furniture is horrible. while i suspect this is because they know people are going to rip it off anyway...it is still a negative mark. the wood furniture models however ill give a 9. their light, and pretty damn accurate...feature control (i wouldnt say its a quality issue) is a bit shotty, some with dimples, some without...threaded muzzles and non threaded ect...all adds up to about a 8 to me.

the SGL line fixes the feature control issues of the saigas, built on the same rifle of course so all of those good qualities are there. the furniture is decent but the price tag, while fair, is still high. i take away from them for the follow reasons...they remove the full auto features from the rifles (nub on bolt and safe are the most notable here)...they do not fully adhere to russian military specifications although they claim to...their close, but not all the way there...and the paint is just junk...plain and simple...thats a saiga issue as well.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

I can only rate that which I have experience with:

Arsenal (current US)

Finish = 5 (wrong solvent and it melts)
Fit = 9
Innovation = 8
Accuracy and Function = 9

Izamash

Finish = 6
Fit = 7
Innovation = 7
Accuracy and Function = TBD (gotta shoot the thing!)

Norinco (early including other Chinese "shadow" manufacturers such as ARMCO)

Finish = 8
Fit = 8
Innovation = 8 (a few points for the number of variants)
Accuracy and Function = 9

Norinco (late)

Finish = 6
Fit = 6
Innocation = 5
Accuracy and Function = 8

Century Arms

Finish = 4 (about as durable as Arsenal but with to many unfinished edges)
Fit = 4
Innovation = 5
Accuracy and Function = 7

VEPR

Finish = 8
Fit = 9
Innovation = 5 (major loss of points for proprietary mags and other BS)
Accuracy and Function = 9

 

[DarthZed]

I'd say Jimbob pretty much nailed it. I might do a +/- 1 here or there; but I'd be splitting hairs.

 

[erwos]

I have a very early Legion Saiga 12, and as far as I can discern, it wasn't any different than any other imported Saiga 12. I guess they rate higher in the "innovation" category, simply because they seem to be offering models with magwells and such. I guess the finish is also a bit better, given that having "Legion USA" electropenciled on your gun seems better than any other importer market I can think of.

Also, remember that Saiga shotguns are going to rate pretty low on function due to QC issues with the ports. The Saiga rifles, OTOH, generally don't suffer from those problems.

 

[Scott7891]

Rating Scale 1= Trash: 10=Izhmash Quality

I'd like to know you're experiences with all the AKM builders on the market. If you owned a AKM build or had experiences with that build please rate them. Several of the builders I can think of off the top of my head are:

This is going to be long....



Allied Armament 5, their builds are hit or miss, mostly miss. Only plus about them is that they use original factory barrels.

American Tactical Intl. (ATI) 2, the fact that the lie about their receivers being milled is a joke. There are no rivets in milled receivers and yet they have them. That alone should be reason enough to stay away from them.

Armory USA (AUSA) 8, excellent receivers that are based on Bulgarian models.

Arsenal Saiga (SGL) 9, they are good conversions and the only company stateside that has the technical blessings of an actual AK military builder. They get the lack of perfect 10 because of their sight canting issues that I personally experienced. I won't knock their paint although a lot say that it is crap. Based on my experience it has held up fairly well compared to my custom AK-74's paintjob that was advertised as "the best" where I had the finish bubble in several places after a hard day of shooting. The Arsenal's paint job had no issues with that coming from a more hollow barrel compared to the '74 and supposed crappy finish.

Arsenal (Bulgarian-SLR) 9, see above. Honestly no different quality wise than the Saigas. They use AKM parts compared to some proprietary Saiga parts which gives them a plus. Love my SLR-100H converted by Vector with the modern milled receiver that is less likely to crack compared to older milled receivers.

Century Arms Intl. 5. The stuff they import is usually decent and a good deal for those who just want shooters and not into looks or collectivity. Their use of factory barrels are a plus (only applicable to their imports). Their domestic builds are garbage sans their Yugo's which are considered the best rifle Century domestically ever put out. Drawback is their non-factory barrels. Avoid their Tantals like the plague.

Interarms 7. Decent mid-grade builds. Better QC than Century but still not up to Arsenal levels. Their earlier builds are the most desired using original factory barrels and have good finishes. Their recent builds have come down in quality a bit but are still above Century.

Inter Ordinance Inc. (IO Inc.) 4. Out of spec receivers, poor quality control, Mossberg barrels (really??) that are not hammer forged or chrome-lined. Plenty of crappy reviews on them. Their saving grace are their imports that just like Century are better than their domestics. Their imports were Romanian-built copies of the East German Wieger rifles in 7.62x39 and .223.

Lancaster Arms 3. Unless you get an early one say pre-2007/8 prepare to be screwed. Probably the worst customer service in the industry. They have a BBB rap sheet a mile long and are known for outright thievery. Don't even consider buying one directly from them or you will never see your money again. Their post 2007/2008 rifles are outright no-good with issues of gas ports drilled too large causing dust covers to pop off.

Legion Saiga 9. These are Izhmash rifles, the same rifles Arsenal uses in their conversions. Considered better than the standard Saigas.

M+M Inc (Colorado Guns Sales) 6. They are essentially WASR's with the sight radius on the gas block and RPK rear sights. Initial quality with them was positive but recent reviews I have read has shown that the quality is definitely hit or miss. Inspect one in person or buy one from a distributor who will refund your money if there is a problem.

Norinco (386) 9. Anyone who knows anything about AK's knows they are good quality and are good bargains for their post-ban models for shooters and even collectors if they have the money to convert it back to its original self.

Red Jacket Firearms (RJF) 6. In the past I have heard about them being decent builds. The show Sons of Guns has painted them as fools. Their whole Krink fiasco put them down a bunch. At one time I wanted their Galil build when they offered it. Can't really say either way with them. I would play it safe and avoid them or inspect their work before hand.

Saiga (Izhmash) 8. Great quality rifles. They get the knock because of the conversion you have to do to get it to be semi decent from its ban form but to the do-it-yourself-er this is the perfect rifle to do it from if you are looking for a no-frills shooter.

Tennessee Guns Intl. (TGI) 2. Have had personal experience with them. They are garbage. They were able to make essentially a .22 AK give me jaw pain so congrats to their mediocrity . Their gunsmith was of no use and had no idea what was going on when I explained the situation. Their finish was worse than Arsenal's in terms of durability with not even a hint of parkerizing below the finish. Their only saving grace was their customer service via Atlantic Arms where I was able to get my money back. Even the D-Technik rifle I bought that was imported and converted by them was crap. Avoid them.

Unitied ARms Corp. N/A. Never heard of them. If I have not they are probably not that good.

Vector Arms 8. They are good solid builds using mostly Bulgarian Type 3 milled and Polish stamped parts kits. They use original factory barrels and Armory receivers.

VEPR 9. Extremely accurate yet heavy AK's. Since they are built on machine gun receivers they are more accurate with a more rigid receiver and heavy barrels.

Zastava-Yugo/Czech Republic builds Both are 9. Both built from factory arsenals known for putting out quality. The original imports of VZ's from TGI were questionable and sucked (like mine) but quality has improved (hopefully because they have gone through another importer).

Other good AK builders out there are also Waffen Werks (would rate them a 7 like Interarms), AK USA, ColdWarClassics, PieceofHistory Firearms, InRange, AZEX, Ted Marshall Arms, Firing Line, Nodak Spud (stamped receivers), CNC Warrior (milled receivers), Investment Grade Arms, all I can think of off the top of my head.

The place you were thinking of in Frederick is Glade Valley Sporting Goods and I would rate them a 10 on build quality.

The only 10's that I could possibly give out to AK's would be the actual full-auto military versions since they are perfection in what an AK can and should be that we can never get.

 

[fivepointstar]

This is going to be long....



Allied Armament 5, their builds are hit or miss, mostly miss. Only plus about them is that they use original factory barrels.

American Tactical Intl. (ATI) 2, the fact that the lie about their receivers being milled is a joke. There are no rivets in milled receivers and yet they have them. That alone should be reason enough to stay away from them.

Armory USA (AUSA) 8, excellent receivers that are based on Bulgarian models.

Arsenal Saiga (SGL) 9, they are good conversions and the only company stateside that has the technical blessings of an actual AK military builder. They get the lack of perfect 10 because of their sight canting issues that I personally experienced. I won't knock their paint although a lot say that it is crap. Based on my experience it has held up fairly well compared to my custom AK-74's paintjob that was advertised as "the best" where I had the finish bubble in several places after a hard day of shooting. The Arsenal's paint job had no issues with that coming from a more hollow barrel compared to the '74 and supposed crappy finish.

Arsenal (Bulgarian-SLR) 9, see above. Honestly no different quality wise than the Saigas. They use AKM parts compared to some proprietary Saiga parts which gives them a plus. Love my SLR-100H converted by Vector with the modern milled receiver that is less likely to crack compared to older milled receivers.

Century Arms Intl. 5. The stuff they import is usually decent and a good deal for those who just want shooters and not into looks or collectivity. Their use of factory barrels are a plus (only applicable to their imports). Their domestic builds are garbage sans their Yugo's which are considered the best rifle Century domestically ever put out. Drawback is their non-factory barrels. Avoid their Tantals like the plague.

Interarms 7. Decent mid-grade builds. Better QC than Century but still not up to Arsenal levels. Their earlier builds are the most desired using original factory barrels and have good finishes. Their recent builds have come down in quality a bit but are still above Century.

Inter Ordinance Inc. (IO Inc.) 4. Out of spec receivers, poor quality control, Mossberg barrels (really??) that are not hammer forged or chrome-lined. Plenty of crappy reviews on them. Their saving grace are their imports that just like Century are better than their domestics. Their imports were Romanian-built copies of the East German Wieger rifles in 7.62x39 and .223.

Lancaster Arms 3. Unless you get an early one say pre-2007/8 prepared to be screwed. Probably the worst customer service in the industry. They have a BBB rap sheet a mile long and are known for outright thievery. Don't even consider buying one directly from them or you will never see your money again. Their post 2007/2008 rifles are outright no-good with issues of gas ports drilled too large causing dust covers to pop off.

Legion Saiga 9. These are Izhmash rifles, the same rifles Arsenal uses in their conversions. Considered better than the standard Saigas.

M+M Inc (Colorado Guns Sales) 6. They are essentially WASR's with the sight radius on the gas block and RPK rear sights. Initial quality with them was positive but recent reviews I have read has shown that the quality is definitely hit or miss. Inspect one in person or buy one from a distributor who will refund your money if there is a problem.

Norinco (386) 9. Anyone who knows anything about AK's knows they are good quality and are good bargains for their post-ban models for shooters and even collectors if they have the money to convert it back to its original self.

Red Jacket Firearms (RJF) 6. In the past I have heard about them being decent builds. The show Sons of Guns has painted them as fools. Their whole Krink fiasco put them down a bunch. At one time I wanted their Galil build when they offered it. Can't really say either way with them. I would play it safe and avoid them or inspect their work before hand.

Saiga (Izhmash) 8. Great quality rifles. They get the knock because of the conversion you have to do to get it to be semi decent from its ban form but to the do-it-yourself-er this is the perfect rifle to do it from.

Tennessee Guns Intl. (TGI) 2. Have had personal experience with them. They are garbage. They were able to make essentially a .22 AK give me jaw pain so congrats to their mediocrity . Their gunsmith was of no use and had no idea what was going on when I explained the situation. Their finish was worse than Arsenal's in terms of durability with not even a hint of parkerizing below the finish. Their only saving grace was their customer service via Atlantic Arms where I was able to get my money back. Even the D-Technik rifle I bought that was imported and converted by them was crap. Avoid them.

Unitied ARms Corp. N/A. Never heard of them. If I have not they are probably not that good.

Vector Arms 8. They are good solid builds using mostly Bulgarian Type 3 milled and Polish stamped parts kits. They use original factory barrels and Armory receivers.

VEPR 9. Extremely accurate yet heavy AK's. Since they are built on machine gun receivers they are more accurate with a more rigid receiver and heavy barrels.

Zastava-Yugo/Czech Republic builds Both are 9. Both built from factory arsenals known for putting out quality. The original imports of VZ's from TGI were questionable and sucked (like mine) but quality has improved (hopefully because they have gone through another importer).

Other good AK builders out there are also Waffen Werks (would rate them a 7 like Interarms), AK USA, ColdWarClassics, PieceofHistory Firearms, InRange, AZEX, Ted Marshall Arms, Firing Line, Nodak Spud (stamped receivers), CNC Warrior (milled receivers), Investment Grade Arms, all I can think of off the top of my head.

The place you were thinking of in Frederick is Glade Valley Sporting Goods and I would rate them a 10 on build quality.

The only 10's that I could possibly give out to AK's would be the actual full-auto military versions since they are perfection in what an AK can and should be that we can never get.

I always enjoy your AK postings! thx

 

[fivepointstar]

Does GLade Valley still build AK's??

 

[Scott7891]

Does GLade Valley still build AK's??

The last time I was there about a month ago he had a few AMD-65 builds. He (Richard) does them off and on depending on what parts kit and parts are available that he can make a reasonable amount of money from.

Otherwise I would buy a parts kit yourself and send them to him so you get exactly what you want.

 

[JCB003]

Chris Butler at AK-USA built my AKS-74U and did some work on my Saiga Legion and Arsenal SLR-107UR. I also have a Vector built AK.

 

[fivepointstar]

The last time I was there about a month ago he had a few AMD-65 builds. He (Richard) does them off and on depending on what parts kit and parts are available that he can make a reasonable amount of money from.

Otherwise I would buy a parts kit yourself and send them to him so you get exactly what you want.

Huh??? whats his rifles usually run? AMD's?? etc?

 

[Scott7891]

Huh??? whats his rifles usually run? AMD's?? etc?

When I bought mine 4 years ago when parts kits and combloc barrels were dirt cheap (right before the Obama scare) it cost me $475 for his build.

Now the AMD-65 there I think was $730.

 

[4g64loser]

Rick sold both the AMD-65s he had left at the Frederick show.

If you want something built, like Scott7891 says, get your kit and he can do it. Just be sure to get a kit with an original barrel. Rick doesn't do US barrel builds.

 

[erwos]

Arsenal Saiga (SGL) 9, they are good conversions and the only company stateside that has the technical blessings of an actual AK military builder.

I'm not sure if that's true anymore:
http://legionusainc.com/about-our-company.html

Legion is Izhmash's custom shop, so I guess one could argue that Legion USA is now the definitive Saiga shop. Still, I'd like to see some more reviews of their builds/mods before rendering judgement on their quality. They definitely have some gear that no one else has, like authentic S12 magwells and Russian 8 round magazines, which is nice.

I agree that the best AK is going to be from a parts kit with original barrel and a good builder.

 

[Scott7891]

Rick sold both the AMD-65s he had left at the Frederick show.

If you want something built, like Scott7891 says, get your kit and he can do it. Just be sure to get a kit with an original barrel. Rick doesn't do US barrel builds.

That is what I plan on doing when I get some money to throw around. Wanted him to do an east German build but apex ran out of them.

Maybe if I get the money for a more expensive tula kit at rguns.....

 

[Scott7891]

I'm not sure if that's true anymore:
http://legionusainc.com/about-our-company.html

Legion is Izhmash's custom shop, so I guess one could argue that Legion USA is now the definitive Saiga shop. Still, I'd like to see some more reviews of their builds/mods before rendering judgement on their quality. They definitely have some gear that no one else has, like authentic S12 magwells and Russian 8 round magazines, which is nice.

I agree that the best AK is going to be from a parts kit with original barrel and a good builder.

True but I have never heard about them until recently. Where are they even located?
If they truly are legion's stateside counterpart why haven't they started doing authentic conversions to compete with arsenal? It would definitely give arsenal a run for their money and maybe legion would not cheap out on the pistol grip reinforcement plates if they sold sidefolding builds.

 

[erwos]

Click the link I provided, and you'll get your answers. They definitely provide stuff Arsenal does not... that no one else does.

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