Samurai sword help

[KH195]

Completely new to edge weapon collecting but I have some other items from WWII so when I came across this sword today at an estate sale I brought it home. Didn't know anything about it other than that it looked similar to other WWII era samurai swords I have seen before, but it was priced low enough that I decided it was worth the risk. After doing a little research I have a pretty high level of confidence in its authenticity, but I would like to know for sure. Scabbard and fittings on the handle match the WWII style, components show honest age (blade does have little patches of rust unfortunately), materials are of a very high quality and all appear correct. I do have a few questions though that some of you may be able to help with. First, the blade on this one appears different than other examples in that the whole thing looks like damascus steel. I know a fair amount of these swords had heirloom blades so I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about the style of this blade. Tried to take it apart, but everything is so tight (I removed the pin and tried to shake it lose) that I wasn't going to risk breaking anthing at this point to get a look at the tang and any markings that may be there. Anyone know of anyone in the DC area that specializes in these that I could take it to for more info?

 

[Fox123]

Is that Damascus or just the folding that is done when these are produced? How does one tell the difference when essentially it is very similar with layers of steel hammer forged together?

 

[Nemesis]

Im going to say that is damascus, iirc when you fold the same steel over itself (as in the making of a katana) you wont see the fold pattern, that comes from using two different types of steel. I could be wrong though.

 

[Indiana Jones]

Here is who is I sold my 700 year old katanas too. Remember, the market is WAY down for Jap swords at the moment. Actually sold them to his friend who is an expert. Nice guys. Also look for Mr Kyoto online he owns a martial arts store in baltimore. Another knowledgable guy.

 

[KH195]

Update

Thanks everyone for the info so far, I appreciate it. Was finally able to get the handle off which I think will end up to be a little bit of a let down. Since I was hoping this was an heirloom blade I was disappointed with the amount (or lack thereof) of rust and the presence of a number on one side....now thinking this could be machine made, but still don't really know. Anyone able to tell me what all the markings mean?

 

[BeltBuckle]

I'm not an expert, but I have a number of friends/family who are, and I've spent many hours with samurai swords. To me that looks like a WWII era mass-produced NCO blade. Not an heirloom, but still very good quality steel. Not Damascus steel, but similar in some respects (we know how they made samurai sword steel -- we're not completely clear on the original Damascus steel recipe, but we know enough to know they are similar in some respects but by no means identical).

An heirloom sword would have cost a lot more than you paid for this one. Be very very careful dealing with the rust. You might want to track down an expert (I think I recall hearing there is a sword polisher somewhere around Bawlimer...) to get it identified and cleaned up. Nice find!

 

[BeltBuckle]

I'm not an expert, but I have a number of friends/family who are, and I've spent many hours with samurai swords. To me that looks like a WWII era mass-produced NCO blade. Not an heirloom, but still very good quality steel. Not Damascus steel, but similar in some respects (we know how they made samurai sword steel -- we're not completely clear on the original Damascus steel recipe, but we know enough to know they are similar in some respects but by no means identical).

An heirloom sword would have cost a lot more than you paid for this one. Be very very careful dealing with the rust. You might want to track down an expert (I think I recall hearing there is a sword polisher somewhere around Bawlimer...) to get it identified and cleaned up. Nice find!

 

[vwluv10338]

I'm working on it but man I hate trying to read kanji. I was working on a sword tonight with my dad with no luck. At least you can read yours. I would say you have a shin gunto type 98 with a forged blade signed by the maker. Most likely not an heirloom blade judging by the tang but the sig and number make me think its a WWII era blade but was made by hand. My Navy has a machine made blade that has nothing but paint markings on the tang. I am trying to read your kanji but no luck so far.

 

[bbrown]

Here's hoping you didn't clean that for the picture.

 

[BeltBuckle]

I'm working on it but man I hate trying to read kanji. I was working on a sword tonight with my dad with no luck. At least you can read yours. I would say you have a shin gunto type 98 with a forged blade signed by the maker. Most likely not an heirloom blade judging by the tang but the sig and number make me think its a WWII era blade but was made by hand. My Navy has a machine made blade that has nothing but paint markings on the tang. I am trying to read your kanji but no luck so far.

I think the yaki-ba (temper line) would look different on a hand-forged blade.... check out The Samurai Sword by John Yumoto (Tuttle) http://www.amazon.com/The-Samurai-Sword-ebook/dp/B00ATLAZEQ/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

 

[vwluv10338]

I think the yaki-ba (temper line) would look different on a hand-forged blade.... check out The Samurai Sword by John Yumoto (Tuttle) http://www.amazon.com/The-Samurai-Sword-ebook/dp/B00ATLAZEQ/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

I have a 1980s hard back copy but it doesnt have much in the way of shin gunto info. I try to stay out of the old swords because its just too easy to get taken and just so much info. There is a lot of stuff out there I would buy before spending $90 an inch for a polish and how ever much it would cost for papers.

I'm just not sure why they would sign a machine-made blade. If it was machine made I would think it would just have an arsenal mark and nothing else. Either way I have not messed with my samurai swords for years but we just picked up another one last week so I had to dig all my books out.

 

[llkoolkeg]

To me that looks like a WWII era mass-produced NCO blade. Not an heirloom, but still very good quality steel.

Some high-quality swords were made by excellent smiths during the time leading up to and even during WWII but wartime shortages of time and material and the obvious need for higher than 1/month production rates necessitated some shortcuts. Iron-sand hand-smelted tamahagane- chunks of homemade high-carbon steel- were traditionally layered and hammered into blades with much pomp, circumstance, prayer and ceremony but when all you have is pieces of twisted railroad steel & spikes, a master smith can still pretty quickly forge a hell of a weapon with the mokume wood-grain burl of pattern-welded steel of varying carbon content and can clay-coat it and give it a beautiful and powerful differential temper line. From the appearance of the nakago and how it is finished or rather not finished, your assessment of its likely value monetarily seems reasonable. I bet when she was in fresh polish, though, and virgin build...Lord knows I'd sure as all Hell not want to have it waved in my general direction!

 

[WeaponsCollector]

There is a possibility it's a Chinese made replica/fake.
Large numbers of them are being made and sold on ebay from many different sellers in China usually for around $100-$300.
Here's some examples with damascus-like blades:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/206-VINTAGE...8146323?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item35c5950c93

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antiques-Ja...1385998?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item2328fae28e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-sa...2819776?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item20d0402b40

 

[KH195]

There is a possibility it's a Chinese made replica/fake.
Large numbers of them are being made and sold on ebay from many different sellers in China usually for around $100-$300.
Here's some examples with damascus-like blades:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/206-VINTAGE...8146323?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item35c5950c93

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antiques-Ja...1385998?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item2328fae28e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-sa...2819776?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item20d0402b40

Weighing that as a possibility now, but if this is a fake it has to be the best damn one out there...I've looked at a ton of the Chinese stuff on eBay and Japanese sword forum sites and the quality of this one is overall much higher, plus the wear and corrosion on the blade really do seem to be from age. That being said it does seem that the grain pattern and signature are a cause of concern. Anyone know the name of that polisher mentioned earlier?

 

[shortround91]

There is a possibility it's a Chinese made replica/fake.
Large numbers of them are being made and sold on ebay from many different sellers in China usually for around $100-$300.
Here's some examples with damascus-like blades WeaponsCollector


I am with you. I appears to me as though you have a chinese made copy. The handle may be original along with the guard. The original type 98's are a mono steel and have no temper line, I have heard that some very early blades did but I am not positive on that one. Your blade is a folded type most likely demascus on the originals as well there is a serial number that if original will match the saya or sheath for the sword. The family heir looms are very expensive I have been looking for one for over a year in my price range that is not ready to rust apart. I have a japanese original short sword and I will take some pics of it tonight and post them for you to show you the serial number and it should also have a factory marking right before or after the serial number. It is still a nice looking sword. I have four right now and I don't know what they consider demascus but I have seen aisi 1095 and 1045 called demascus as well as several others. The writing under the handle is most likely the sword maker or as I understand it it should be. The information that I am giving you is with my little tiny bit of knowledge that I has gotten researching the purchase of a ww2 japanese sword for myself. Be very leary of the ones found on ebay especially from overseas. Look for the ones here in the US that have capture papers on them.
Billy