No more SBRs

[SneakySh0rty]

A person can manufacture a handgun for personal use but not for transfer or sale without it being on the roster, correct? It seems to me for an SBR to be transferred on a form 4 going forward, it will have to be on the roster, and less than 26" to be a handgun, but for one to manufacture an SBR (handgun) for personal use, form 1s are still okay. Thoughts?

A little more complicated than that, but basically true. Note that you're not required to fill out a 77r on a home build, though.

Unless it was a form 1 correct? Then it is subject *only* to copycat, ALG/copy, NFA and OAL?

A friend of mine has a finished pre 10/1 80% billet lower made into a ar pistol. does this need to be registered.

So, my question is a mixture of all these statements. I had an 80% i completed before October 1st, made it into an AR pistol, then submitted a Form 1 on 9/30, approved in January. The barrel I have for it was advertised as a 7.5" HBAR. Since it was a home built lower , no need for a 77r and passes the ALG cause of HBAR. but what about the copy cat test? Clearly Ill fail the <29" requirement. Or am I going about this incorrectly? Also, when does the advisory go into effect, Oct 1 or now in March?

You and I are potentially in a lot of trouble, yes. So are many FFLs who sold form 4 guns and would be financially destroyed if they needed to do refunds. There's going to be a lot of pushing to get an exemption for pre-10/1 transfers.

In regards to the Engage lowers. They have an approved pistol on the roster. Cant one cancel a Form 4, have the pistol lower transferred to buyer, then have individual Form 1 it to MD state legal standards?

 

[erwos]

In regards to the Engage lowers. They have an approved pistol on the roster. Cant one cancel a Form 4, have the pistol lower transferred to buyer, then have individual Form 1 it to MD state legal standards?

That works for certain barrel lengths / OALs. But other guns, like my G17 SBR, will never meet OAL. So that's a problem. Also sucks if you have problems other than OAL (ie, folding stock + FH).

Let me also point out that SBR'ing stripped lowers is an extremely controversial practice at the BATFE level. I'd be willing to start paperwork on one, but I'd finish it way before it hit the transfer stage.

 

[daNattyFatty]

Let me also point out that SBR'ing stripped lowers is an extremely controversial practice at the BATFE level.

How so?

I currently have an efiled trust form 1 for a 870 SBS.

I was going to SBR a pre 10/1 stripped lower probably later this year.

 

[erwos]

I should have specified "on a form 4".

 

[swinokur]

If the pre 10/1 lower was purchased as an O, why does it need to be on the handgun roster? What if I made an HBar out of it?

 

[armed ferret]

My engage pre 10/1 lower got an hbar upper installed before I filled out the form 1 to sbr it.

My 2 F1 ak receivers were obviously pre 10/1.

What the fck do I do? Do I have to now go back to msp and fill out 77rs on all of them?

 

[clandestine]

My engage pre 10/1 lower got an hbar upper installed before I filled out the form 1 to sbr it.

My 2 F1 ak receivers were obviously pre 10/1.

What the fck do I do? Do I have to now go back to msp and fill out 77rs on all of them?

No. This effects Form 4 stuff for the most part.

No matter what, you are ok on the AR and AK you just described on a Form 1 from the way I read this bulletin. Your guns are already BANNED ALG's, you are just shortening them on a Form 1. You cant make a banned ALG more banned.

Your fine.

Worst case it the MSP will tell people that own SBRs on Form 1's is they have to 77r them, but this has not happened.

Guys/Gals with pending Form 4's not so much.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

...
No matter what, you are ok on the AR and AK you just described on a Form 1 from the way I read this bulletin. Your guns are already BANNED ALG's, you are just shortening them on a Form 1. You cant make a banned ALG more banned.
..

While I do tend to share your point of view, I would say that the ATF considers form 1 the making of the a new firearm. So MSP could say the same. Since SBRs and SBSs are banned under the copy cat (and maybe under ALG), they might consider that making a new banned gun... which is not legal. It just depends on how MSP wants to spin things now that they have confused the law even more by trying to say SBRs and SBSs are still rifles and shotguns according to MD law. The complications from all this are going to hard to deal with.

My guess is that we will be very confused about several things for years to come!

 

[clandestine]

While I do tend to share your point of view, I would say that the ATF considers form 1 the making of the a new firearm. So MSP could say the same. Since SBRs and SBSs are banned under the copy cat (and maybe under ALG), they might consider that making a new banned gun... which is not legal. It just depends on how MSP wants to spin things now that they have confused the law even more by trying to say SBRs and SBSs are still rifles and shotguns according to MD law. The complications from all this are going to hard to deal with.

My guess is that we will be very confused about several things for years to come!

I agree 100% ad I have stated that in the past. Doing a Form 1 is manufacturing a NEW firearm in the eyes of ATF. No matter how much people want to play with words, its making a new gun. The question is, does the MSP follow the same line of reasoning. Logic would say that ATF guidelines are vailid unless the MSP say otherwise.


During the 94 AWB if you had a pre ban AR15 with the "evil" features and decided to SBR the gun in 1995 it was no longer considered a "pre ban" and could no longer have more than one evil feature.

I say the same about how people measure OAL. Theres several shops making 2013FSA compliant guns by adding muzzle devices to make the OAL over 29" BUT they are not pinning the device. ATF has long said that if the muzzle device isn't pinned it does not count for OAL.

 

[TNW]

While I do tend to share your point of view, I would say that the ATF considers form 1 the making of the a new firearm. So MSP could say the same. Since SBRs and SBSs are banned under the copy cat (and maybe under ALG), they might consider that making a new banned gun... which is not legal. It just depends on how MSP wants to spin things now that they have confused the law even more by trying to say SBRs and SBSs are still rifles and shotguns according to MD law. The complications from all this are going to hard to deal with.

My guess is that we will be very confused about several things for years to come!

Would this only apply to certain SBRs?
Because it seems as if the following is still ok:
Colt HBAR
Form 1 to SBR it
Remains Over 29" OAL
Remains HBAR
Only evil feature is flash hider

Doesn't that prevent it from being a copycat and ALG?

 

[SneakySh0rty]

If the pre 10/1 lower was purchased as an O, why does it need to be on the handgun roster? What if I made an HBar out of it?

VI. Approval for Sale or Manufacture by Handgun Roster Board
Additionally, because PS 5-401(c) uses the definition of “handgun” from CR 4-201, a shortbarreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun must be approved by the Handgun Roster Board before it maybe manufactured for distribution or sale, or sold or offered for sale in Maryland.

if you not selling or distributing, you are GTG

I agree 100% ad I have stated that in the past. Doing a Form 1 is manufacturing a NEW firearm in the eyes of ATF. No matter how much people want to play with words, its making a new gun.

During the 94 AWB if you had a pre ban AR15 with the "evil" features and decided to SBR the gun in 1995 it was no longer considered a "pre ban" and could no longer have more than one evil feature.

I agree it's also a making of a new gun. Which brings me to this question. Does that mean that all Form 1 SBRs already approved after 10/1 are subject to this advisory, what about those Form 1s submitted before advisory but not yet approved, or does this apply onto Form1s from advisory onward?

 

[clandestine]

VI. Approval for Sale or Manufacture by Handgun Roster Board
Additionally, because PS 5-401(c) uses the definition of “handgun” from CR 4-201, a shortbarreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun must be approved by the Handgun Roster Board before it maybe manufactured for distribution or sale, or sold or offered for sale in Maryland.



I agree it's also a making of a new gun. Which brings me to this question. Does that mean that all Form 1 SBRs already approved after 10/1 are subject to this advisory, what about those Form 1s submitted before advisory but not yet approved, or does this apply onto Form1s from advisory onward?

If it was on a From 4 it may be a problem IMO since it wasn't on the Roster, sold with a lock, didn't have a 77r performed, etc....


Lets say it was an AR on a Form 1 passed after 10/1 (I have 2 of these BTW). Lets say it has a collapsible stock and flash hider then all you would have to do is install SHORT BHAR 10.5" (7.5" would be too short to make the 29" OAL) or longer barrel and NEVER install a Grenade Launcher to it. The OAL will be longer than 29", it only has 1 "evil" feature (Flash Hider) and since its an HBAR is not a BANED ALG.

AK's are a different ball of wax as theres no HBAR exemption for that platform.

 

[fabsroman]

Would this only apply to certain SBRs?
Because it seems as if the following is still ok:
Colt HBAR
Form 1 to SBR it
Remains Over 29" OAL
Remains HBAR
Only evil feature is flash hider

Doesn't that prevent it from being a copycat and ALG?

Another question to ask with this route of thinking is whether making a SBR out of a HBAR, essentially removes it from the HBAR exception. For instance, what is the barrel length on the Colt Sporter HBAR Does barrel length matter in the definition of "HBAR". Remember, the exception is for the Colt Sporter HBAR and copies of it. Does making a Colt Sporter HBAR an SBR no longer qualify it for the exemption to the ban.

After this release from MSP, things are way more complicated. Seems as though IF you can come up with a SBR that is not banned, you then need to see if it is on the handgun roster. If it is not on the handgun roster, then you need to apply to have it put on the handgun roster. Lots more hoops it seems to get an SBR or SBS.

 

[clandestine]

Another question to ask with this route of thinking is whether making a SBR out of a HBAR, essentially removes it from the HBAR exception. For instance, what is the barrel length on the Colt Sporter HBAR Does barrel length matter in the definition of "HBAR". Remember, the exception is for the Colt Sporter HBAR and copies of it. Does making a Colt Sporter HBAR an SBR no longer qualify it for the exemption to the ban.

After this release from MSP, things are way more complicated. Seems as though IF you can come up with a SBR that is not banned, you then need to see if it is on the handgun roster. If it is not on the handgun roster, then you need to apply to have it put on the handgun roster. Lots more hoops it seems to get an SBR or SBS.

I disagree. They clarified already muddy water. People just don't like the clarification.

An HBAR has never been defined based on length in MD or a federal level.

 

[TNW]

Another question to ask with this route of thinking is whether making a SBR out of a HBAR, essentially removes it from the HBAR exception. For instance, what is the barrel length on the Colt Sporter HBAR Does barrel length matter in the definition of "HBAR". Remember, the exception is for the Colt Sporter HBAR and copies of it. Does making a Colt Sporter HBAR an SBR no longer qualify it for the exemption to the ban.

After this release from MSP, things are way more complicated. Seems as though IF you can come up with a SBR that is not banned, you then need to see if it is on the handgun roster. If it is not on the handgun roster, then you need to apply to have it put on the handgun roster. Lots more hoops it seems to get an SBR or SBS.

I thought the operational definition of an HBAR used by the MSP and FFL's was a barrel that does not go below .750 in diameter... Or am I wrong on this?

And would the roster only be necessary on a Form 4 because of the transfer? And not a Form 1?

 

[armed ferret]

No. This effects Form 4 stuff for the most part.

No matter what, you are ok on the AR and AK you just described on a Form 1 from the way I read this bulletin. Your guns are already BANNED ALG's, you are just shortening them on a Form 1. You cant make a banned ALG more banned.

Your fine.

Worst case it the MSP will tell people that own SBRs on Form 1's is they have to 77r them, but this has not happened.

Guys/Gals with pending Form 4's not so much.

Gotcha. And if I decide to SBR another one of my (pre-10/1, obviously) AK's in the future (and we're still in MD at that time), I should still be GTG?

 

[Inigoes]

Another question to ask with this route of thinking is whether making a SBR out of a HBAR, essentially removes it from the HBAR exception. For instance, what is the barrel length on the Colt Sporter HBAR Does barrel length matter in the definition of "HBAR". Remember, the exception is for the Colt Sporter HBAR and copies of it. Does making a Colt Sporter HBAR an SBR no longer qualify it for the exemption to the ban.

After this release from MSP, things are way more complicated. Seems as though IF you can come up with a SBR that is not banned, you then need to see if it is on the handgun roster. If it is not on the handgun roster, then you need to apply to have it put on the handgun roster. Lots more hoops it seems to get an SBR or SBS.

Irrelevant, since the MSP approved the SIG 556 pistol on the handgun roster.

An AR pistol is not banned outright, and since a SBR is not considered a rifle according to MD code, it's irrelevant.

 

[tc617]

I have purchased SBR length uppers with heavy barrels. I even have a 7.5" AR pistol with a heavy barrel.

10.5" TRR15A3 UPPER RECEIVERS - 5.56mm
Complete with Bolt and Charging Handle
Heavy Barrel Profile

 

[swinokur]

And on what date? I bought my lower last June, LEO signoff in September, then sent to BATFE.

What a fuster cluck.

 

[TNW]

I have purchased SBR length uppers with heavy barrels. I even have a 7.5" AR pistol with a heavy barrel.

If you could shoot me a PM with where you got your barrels that would be great. Really looking for an HBAR 10.3 or 10.5