Fakes, positively hate 'em

[mawkie]

The last couple of years I've been on the lookout for a German issued Astra 400 but haven't had any luck yet. Then I ran across this Gun Broker listing for a German 400 but instantly knew it was bogus. German Astras never had Waffenampt markings, you can only ID them by the serial number range which was from 92851 to 98850. So when I see the seller proclaim that it was German marked I was suspicious.
Then a check of the SN showed it was close, 87,000 range, but definitely outside the range of German use. Then when you look at the right rear side of the slide you can see where someone tried to stamp a fake Waffenampt on the curved surface. German inspectors weren't so stupid, they always marked on the flat rear surface of the frame.
So always be vigilant and ya gotta be cautious when it comes to certain items. Luckily this one was easy to spot.

 

[KH195]

I saw that one too (also starting to keep an eye out for a German 400). You're right, luckily that one is a poor attempt but I still wouldn't be surprised to see it get a bid at some point from someone that hasn't done their research. I've seen two 600s with fake waffenamts in the past as well, and if the sellers/dealers don't research enough to know its a fake before offering it for sale I can imagine there are quite a few buyers that don't do their homework either.

 

[Sunir]

This is a damn shame. Do you think the seller himself is aware? Or do unscrupulous folks do this themselves and try to pass a fake off as the real thing?

 

[Docster]

The last couple of years I've been on the lookout for a German issued Astra 400 but haven't had any luck yet. Then I ran across this Gun Broker listing for a German 400 but instantly knew it was bogus. German Astras never had Waffenampt markings, you can only ID them by the serial number range which was from 92851 to 98850. So when I see the seller proclaim that it was German marked I was suspicious.
Then a check of the SN showed it was close, 87,000 range, but definitely outside the range of German use. Then when you look at the right rear side of the slide you can see where someone tried to stamp a fake Waffenampt on the curved surface. German inspectors weren't so stupid, they always marked on the flat rear surface of the frame.
So always be vigilant and ya gotta be cautious when it comes to certain items. Luckily this one was easy to spot.

Thanks for the lesson. After all, I understand you know a little something about old women and old guns...

 

[Alphabrew]

Thanks for passing on this knowledge!

 

[Bertfish]

Mawkie, did you contact the seller and point out the issue? I could see them denying your claim if they were trying to sell it knowing it was a fake but the flip side is that they could be totally unaware

 

[edhallor]

Many times I've emailed the Poster that his advertisement contained errors on the off chance he really did'nt know. 99% of the time I get no answer or a F you. Gunbroker seems to give a crap less. For the new C&R members research before you bid, if no one else is bidding or the price seems low you have a red flag. carefull with the five minute left bids with 0 bids there is usually a reason for that, all bad. Good luck with building your collection, your using this C&R Thread is the best move you can make.
Good Collecting,
Eddie O

The last couple of years I've been on the lookout for a German issued Astra 400 but haven't had any luck yet. Then I ran across this Gun Broker listing for a German 400 but instantly knew it was bogus. German Astras never had Waffenampt markings, you can only ID them by the serial number range which was from 92851 to 98850. So when I see the seller proclaim that it was German marked I was suspicious.
Then a check of the SN showed it was close, 87,000 range, but definitely outside the range of German use. Then when you look at the right rear side of the slide you can see where someone tried to stamp a fake Waffenampt on the curved surface. German inspectors weren't so stupid, they always marked on the flat rear surface of the frame.
So always be vigilant and ya gotta be cautious when it comes to certain items. Luckily this one was easy to spot.

 

[A1Uni]

Interesting thread. I am admittedly am not an expert on Astra handguns, but this one came into the shop recently.

From the serial range it appears the German proof mark may be fictitious, thoughts?

 

[somd_mustangs]

That's an Astra 600 isn't it? If so it's legit they went up to 10,500. Stamp looks right.

 

[A1Uni]

See, I told ya I was no Astra expert.

Thanks for the info.

 

[rwbow1969]

Thanks for the lesson. After all, I understand you know a little something about old women and old guns...

Wow...

 

[mawkie]

The Astra 600 is indeed the real deal! Again, as somd_mustangs mentioned, you can ID these by SN range, it's well documented.

 

[Sunir]

Interesting thread. I am admittedly am not an expert on Astra handguns, but this one came into the shop recently.

From the serial range it appears the German proof mark may be fictitious, thoughts?

That's a nice one. I see you're an industry partner. Do you have a website with inventory and pricing? Do you normally carry vintage/C&R stuff or mostly modern stuff?

Having recently gotten my C&R 03FFL I am contacting some local vendors initially. Hopefully there are more C&R friendly vendors than I think and I will be pleasantly surprised.

This thread about fakes is a scary one though for sure, definitely has my guard up about some of the stuff I see on Gunbroker and so forth.

 

[Abulg1972]

:tFor the new C&R members research before you bid, if no one else is bidding or the price seems low you have a red flag.

I can never figure Gunbroker out. I see some things that get absolutely nothing, and a very similar firearm will have 39 bids. The only thing I absolutely know is that when there are 28 bids with 4 days to go, it's something to watch.

This is a little off topic, but I just picked up an Argentine Model 1891 (Mfg 1899) in about 90% condition with a mirror bright and strong bore. Everything matches except the bolt. I saw it on gunbroker and was watching it. He listed it at $249 and not a single bid. He mistakenly listed it as "numbers matching" but corrected himself when I asked him to confirm that everything matched. Aside from the bolt, the only thing I could come up with as to why there was no interest is that the cartouche on the buttstock had been removed, but that was common with these rifles so I am really at a loss to explain this one. I know that these are not as sought after as the 1909 or the 1891 carbines, but still - for $249 you'd think someone would bite. I ended up grabbing it for what he was asking, plus he threw in a new set of RCBS dies.

Anyway, it's instructive to watch the bidding activity on these auctions, but you just never know - you really need to do your homework on these old rifles, especially the more popular ones, unless you're willing to take a chance.

 

[protegeV]

Me too, natural is the way to go

 

[KH195]

Here's another interesting one I came across last week...check out the stamp in pic 7. I'm no expert on Vz (Cz) 24s, but from what I have read it seems the 24s rarely have waffenamts or Nazi test proofs and when they do it is WaA76 and likely applied during re-arsenal or repair, since most of the captured guns were issued without additional markings after occupation. Seems the seller may have realized the mark was bogus and that's why he didn't mention it in the listing.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=411902616

 

[somd_mustangs]

That's one goofy "Waffenamt" - Army firing proof (Eagle/Swastika) and some sort of WaA mark underneath.

 

[mawkie]

Interesting! I've been to the seller's brick and mortar and they're experienced enough to know that the mark was questionable to say the least. Sad to take a decent condition VZ24 and pretty much ruin it for collector value.
I'm wondering if anyone has assembled a visual library with photos of known fake stamps. Would be a serious bonus to the collecting community.