01 to 03 ffl transfer

[pigfrmr]

Well here's one for all the "I'm not a lawyer, google foo experts"......I've called ATF and NICS, and spoke to 5 different people, no one could give me an answer (what a suprise) - Does the transfer of a C&R firearm, between an 01 ffl and an 03 ffl (me) require a NICS call? As I read it, it does not. I spoke to my usual 01 ffl and he says no, it's simply a "bound book to bound book transfer".
So here's the thing.....I found a really good deal at a pawn shop today, they insisted on an NICS check, okay no big deal - cya - well for reasons known only to God, it was "delayed". A couple hours later, I went back. They would not call again and would not refund my money. Well, before it turned into an altercation, I left without the firearm or refund. First thing tomorrow morning, I intend to return, armed with the regs book, leaving with one or the other. I don't generally like to make waves, but this is really pissing me off. I'm thinking at least I should file a complaint with atf/nics/msp and the better business bureau........thoughts, comments,

 

[Splitter]

So you paid for the gun and they are saying the NICS was delayed? Then they simply refused to call again and kept the money for the gun?

Just making sure I am reading this right.

Splitter

 

[novus collectus]

Well here's one for all the "I'm not a lawyer, google foo experts"......I've called ATF and NICS, and spoke to 5 different people, no one could give me an answer (what a suprise) - Does the transfer of a C&R firearm, between an 01 ffl and an 03 ffl (me) require a NICS call? As I read it, it does not. I spoke to my usual 01 ffl and he says no, it's simply a "bound book to bound book transfer".

That is a big definite NO. No NICS (Brady) check for transactions between FFLs if it is for a firearm within the scope of their license. This includes C&R FFL.

(P13) Is the transfer of a firearm by a licensed dealer to a licensed collector subject to the Brady law? [Back]

The Brady law does not apply to the transfer of a curio or relic firearm to a licensed collector. However, a licensed collector who acquires a firearm other than a curio or relic from a licensee would be treated like a non-licensee, and the transfer would be subject to Brady requirements.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#p11

However, because the state has a further regulation dealing with regulated firearms, there is a state check on regulated C&R firearms purchases by C&R FFLs.

So here's the thing.....I found a really good deal at a pawn shop today, they insisted on an NICS check, okay no big deal - cya - well for reasons known only to God, it was "delayed". A couple hours later, I went back.

The problem with this is they went and did it even though they weren't supposed to and once it was delayed I think they are well within their right to not take the chance of going through the transfer IMO.

A couple hours later, I went back. They would not call again and would not refund my money.

Not refunding your money sounds damn fishy.

First thing tomorrow morning, I intend to return, armed with the regs book, leaving with one or the other. I don't generally like to make waves, but this is really pissing me off. I'm thinking at least I should file a complaint with atf/nics/msp and the better business bureau........thoughts, comments,

Return with a copy of your C&R FFL and tell them to tell the ATF your firearms license number if there is still a delay. It would help them to better identify you I would think.
In any case, I believe you have to exchange copies of FFLs with each other anyway when doing a C&R purchase....even if it is a state regulated C&R.

 

[zoostation]

First question in my mind is whether or not it is a C&R eligible gun. There is NO federal requirement for a NICS check for a C&R holder to receive a C&R eligible gun. Look at your pawn dealer and carefully and slowly explain to him "that's why they call it an F-F-L."

If it is a non C&R-eligible gun, then your C&R affords you no special privileges and you have to do the NICS like everyone else.

Also, if it is a handgun or otherwise a MD "regulated firearm" you are buying inside Maryland you still have to follow the state laws, 7-day wait, $10 MSP application, etc. Since this was supposed to be a cash and carry sale from the beginning though it doesn't sound like it was a MD regulated firearm anyway.

What kind of gun was it?

 

[pigfrmr]

In any case, I believe you have to exchange copies of FFLs with each other anyway when doing a C&R purchase....even if it is a state regulated C&R

First thing I did was present my license!

Not refunding your money sounds damn fishy.

"no refund policy".......but I never took possesion.........."no refunds".......but what if it is not approved?........."no refunds"

However, because the state has a further regulation dealing with regulated firearms, there is a state check on regulated C&R firearms purchases by C&R FFLs.

First question in my mind is whether or not it is a C&R eligible gun.

Sorry, forgot that part, yes - a non-regulated, C&R listed, 91/30 sniper

 

[novus collectus]

First thing I did was present my license!

I assumed as much, but wasn't sure so I mentioned it anyway.

"no refund policy".......but I never took possesion.........."no refunds".......but what if it is not approved?........."no refunds"

That sounds like theft to me.

Maybe get the serial number of the rifle from them, tell them since you bought it according to them, you are entering it into your bound book and you are then reporting it stolen filling out the ATF theft reporting form right in front of them.
Just kidding.....sort of. If worse comes to worse, let them know that because it involves FFL to FFL transfers it makes everything very complicated and if the ATF gets involved they would have way more to lose than you possibly could by an audit or investigation of both parties.

 

[pigfrmr]

Cool, thanks for all the help
The thing that really gets me is this would be my first c&r purchase - and i got my license on April 1st! Don't get out much so this is just one more thing to send me back to my reclusiveness.


"Just one more thing to go around. Up on the roof with magnum, nine dead and they blame Marine training."
George Carlin

 

[coinboy]

What shop was it?

 

[pigfrmr]

What shop was it?

CRAZY LOUIE'S PAWN SHOP I, ROCK AND ROLL OUTFITTERS

 

[zoostation]

Well as we all know a 91/30 Sniper is definitely NOT regulated and definitely IS C&R. He did not need to run a NICS check on you. Tell the "dealer" to pull his head out of his ass and learn the rules of his business.

The NICS delay could have been caused by any number of reasons, and he'll probably get a proceed response on you by tommorrow. Most likely, someone with similar ID info to yours got into trouble since the last time you did a 4473. Or, maybe one of a dozen other common reasons. Not to sweat it. NICS is required to provide a response to the dealer within 3 business days, if they don't, he can transfer the weapon after that time. Almost all NICS follow-up responses are made within 24 hours.

Most counties have fairly strict regulations concerning pawn shops (in many cases with good reason). They're usually monitored pretty closely by both the local police/sheriff and the local zoning and permits people. A few phone calls around about his business practices might raise his awareness of how to treat customers.

 

[zoostation]

CRAZY LOUIE'S PAWN SHOP I, ROCK AND ROLL OUTFITTERS

Well if that name doesn't tell you something right there. Kind of fits right in with other respectable establishments like Kwikie Cash Pay Day Loanz and Bustin' Out Bailbonds.

 

[pigfrmr]

Yeah, just didn't think i should have to wait 3 days......... thats why i got the license in the first place.

 

[sbarber7973]

Well here's one for all the "I'm not a lawyer, google foo experts"......I've called ATF and NICS, and spoke to 5 different people, no one could give me an answer (what a suprise) - Does the transfer of a C&R firearm, between an 01 ffl and an 03 ffl (me) require a NICS call? As I read it, it does not. I spoke to my usual 01 ffl and he says no, it's simply a "bound book to bound book transfer".
So here's the thing.....I found a really good deal at a pawn shop today, they insisted on an NICS check, okay no big deal - cya - well for reasons known only to God, it was "delayed". A couple hours later, I went back. They would not call again and would not refund my money. Well, before it turned into an altercation, I left without the firearm or refund. First thing tomorrow morning, I intend to return, armed with the regs book, leaving with one or the other. I don't generally like to make waves, but this is really pissing me off. I'm thinking at least I should file a complaint with atf/nics/msp and the better business bureau........thoughts, comments,

When you go today, if they do not either give you your gun, or give you your money back call the local police and press charges on the rep of the pawn shop for theft.

 

[pigfrmr]

When you go today, if they do not either give you your gun, or give you your money back call the local police and press charges on the rep of the pawn shop for theft.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what I'm gonna do, just found out that there's a special agency - much like "the insurance commision" (so pretty much worthless) that oversees pawnbrokers. They've definetely pissed off the wrong mofo!!!

Maybe get the serial number of the rifle from them, tell them since you bought it according to them, you are entering it into your bound book and you are then reporting it stolen filling out the ATF theft reporting form right in front of them.
Just kidding.....sort of. If worse comes to worse, let them know that because it involves FFL to FFL transfers it makes everything very complicated and if the ATF gets involved they would have way more to lose than you possibly could by an audit or investigation of both parties

 

[kalister1]

What I have read is that the C&R FFL is an Importer license. I have also heard that the Maryland laws apply when purchased in Maryland. When an item is imported into the State with your license it is a completely different ball game than buying within the State.

 

[sbarber7973]

Ah very good point, if it is a rifle your C&R should of been good, but a C&R pistol is treated like any other pistol 7 day wait applies.

 

[Half-cocked]

Personal opinion:

1. Pawnbroker guy doesn't know jack about FFL's. He's a pawnbroker, by trade - not a gun dealer. The only reason he has an FFL in the first place is so that he can pawn firearms... he probably doesn't even understand what "C&R" means.

2. Showing him your C&R FFL made him suspicious... "the guy has an FFL, does he know something I don't know about this particular gun??? Hmm.... maybe I'm selling it for much less than it's worth..."

3. Pawnbroker guy decides to renig on the deal, for the reason described in #2.

He's a thief, from my point of view.

 

[novus collectus]

What I have read is that the C&R FFL is an Importer license. I have also heard that the Maryland laws apply when purchased in Maryland. When an item is imported into the State with your license it is a completely different ball game than buying within the State.

Yes and no I think. The C&R FFL is not a federal importer's license ("engaged in the business of"), but because of the section of code in the MD regulated firearms section if does not define "importer", therefore a C&R FFL who is not an "engaged in the business of importing" licensee licensed to import from out of state (I think the fed law says "import from out of state") or from out of the country may fit the definition of "licensed importer" when importing within the scope of the C&R license........as I understand it. I am not a lawyer.
While I would say this would make a C&R licensee a licensed "importer" for purposes of the entire regulated firearms section (or most of it) and buying handguns within the state, the AG's office I guess has determined that a C&R FFL is only a licensed importer when actually importing and not always.....er, something or other....maybe.

 

[VNVGUNNER]

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what I'm gonna do, just found out that there's a special agency - much like "the insurance commision" (so pretty much worthless) that oversees pawnbrokers. They've definetely pissed off the wrong mofo!!!

Do you want my number in case you need bail ?

 

[zoostation]

So did numbnuts give you the gun you paid for yet?