6.5 Grendel versus 223, 77gr SMK?

[justeric]

I'm currently using a wylde chambered 223/556 AR-15 in DMR matches. I have only participated in two matches. In the last match, I was able to hit all the targets and they were all in the 400 to 600 yard range. The winds were light at the match. I actually managed a 5th overall. I'm using hand loaded 77 grain SMK bullets. At 100 yards they shoot MOA give or take a little.

I'm considering building a Grendel for my DMR gun. I know the Grendel has better ballistics than the 223/556. I suspect this would be really helpful on windy days.

When considering the cost to shoot a Grendel, I am concerned about the brass cost. With my 223/556, I can pick casing off the ground or buy them used at around $.08 a piece. On the other hand, Grendel brass is probably not laying around and costs around $.80 new. I think it would be a real pain to try to find all my Grendel brass after shooting a DMR stage but that is probably necessary.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Grendel versus the 223/556? It seems like the Grendel will be considerably more expensive to shoot. Is shooting the Grendel worth the extra money? I suspect I will only shoot 500 to 1000 rounds a year in a DMR gun.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Speed3]

If your doing OK now, why change? How many stages will the grendel out perform the .223? Depending on the set up, I don't think you will get that much more performance out of the grendel at less than 300 yards...depending on the match, you might only shoot a few stages past that yardage.

I'm cheap and would shoot the .223 and leave it at that.

 

[justeric]

If your doing OK now, why change? How many stages will the grendel out perform the .223? Depending on the set up, I don't think you will get that much more performance out of the grendel at less than 300 yards...depending on the match, you might only shoot a few stages past that yardage.

I'm cheap and would shoot the .223 and leave it at that.

In the DMR matches, we don't have many targets closer than 300 yards. The first match I participated in was a blur to me and I can't remember much about the stages. The last one had all the targets between 400 yards and 600 yards. I think the Grendel will shoot better in the 400 to 600 yard range better on windy days. The Grendel's BC is much better and I think you push a 124 grain bullet. In fact, I think the Grendel has better ballistics than a 308 out to 1000 yards.

But your point is well taken. How much will I gain from using a Grendel when shooting 400 to 600 yards as a replacement for my 223/556 using 77 grain bullets. I suspect not much unless the wind is blowing. But the cost will be at least 2 times as much to shoot. I'm also not sure about the reliability of Grendel uppers.

Thanks!
Eric

 

[Maverick0313]

Maybe consider 6.8 SPC????

 

[etc]

The thing that drives me crazy about 223, in any weight, is how sensitive it is to wind. A little bit of wind will significantly throw it around. In a perfect situation with no wind, it's sub-moa accurate but that never happens.

I think 223 is a particularly bad choice, IMO. Almost anything is better.

 

[justeric]

Maybe consider 6.8 SPC????

I think I read that the 6.8 SPC is only for close in shooting. I think the article said the 6.5 Grendel has much better ballistics at distances beyond 300 yards. Is my fuzzy memory wrong?

 

[jimbobborg]

I think I read that the 6.8 SPC is only for close in shooting. I think the article said the 6.5 Grendel has much better ballistics at distances beyond 300 yards. Is my fuzzy memory wrong?

IIRC it's further out than that. That's why I went with the 6.8 versus the 6.5.

 

[justeric]

IIRC it's further out than that. That's why I went with the 6.8 versus the 6.5.

I found the article I read in the AR-15 Magazine. It states, "It does well out to 250 or 300 yards but past that its performance falls off dramatically, because it has neither the aerodynamics of the 6.5 Grendel nor the speed of the .223".

 

[Speed3]

In the DMR matches, we don't have many targets closer than 300 yards. The first match I participated in was a blur to me and I can't remember much about the stages. The last one had all the targets between 400 yards and 600 yards. I think the Grendel will shoot better in the 400 to 600 yard range better on windy days. The Grendel's BC is much better and I think you push a 124 grain bullet. In fact, I think the Grendel has better ballistics than a 308 out to 1000 yards.

But your point is well taken. How much will I gain from using a Grendel when shooting 400 to 600 yards as a replacement for my 223/556 using 77 grain bullets. I suspect not much unless the wind is blowing. But the cost will be at least 2 times as much to shoot. I'm also not sure about the reliability of Grendel uppers.

Thanks!
Eric

I have only shot one DMR match at that was in Westminster. I believe that you shoot Peacemaker a bunch? I would be interested and tagging along at some point and shooting one of those.

 

[Yoshi]

Out of the 5.56/.223 or 6.8, the Grendel will shoot the flattest. Having said that, the difference won't be seen 'til after 300-400yds. It will also retain it's speed better than those two at longer distances.

I have been a fan of it for awhile, but I run a .308 and .260. The only reason I am thinking about building one is the ability to have .308'ish ballistics in an AR-15 platform. The AR-10s are way too heavy.

 

[justeric]

I have only shot one DMR match at that was in Westminster. I believe that you shoot Peacemaker a bunch? I would be interested and tagging along at some point and shooting one of those.

That would be great. The next DMR match at PNTC will be on October 25th. They have an NRA match coming on Oct 10 and 11th. I plan on shooting on the morning wave on the 10th. I think they will have a mix of close in targets and some out to 300 or 400 yards. I'll use my close in AR for the NRA match since it has a 1-6 power scope. My DMR scope is 2.5 to 10. It's tough for me to shoot quickly at targets 30 yards away on 2.5 power.

Where do you shoot DMR matches in Westminster? When do they have their next DMR match. I'd like to tag along for that match.

Thanks,
Eric

 

[jimbobborg]

I found the article I read in the AR-15 Magazine. It states, "It does well out to 250 or 300 yards but past that its performance falls off dramatically, because it has neither the aerodynamics of the 6.5 Grendel nor the speed of the .223".

If they were using Remington or Federal ammo and the original spec chamber and twist rate, I can see that.

 

[1time]

If they were using Remington or Federal ammo and the original spec chamber and twist rate, I can see that.

Twist and chamber have little to do with it. The market is lacking in high B.C. bullets for the .277.

 

[photoracer]

I agree about the bullet issue, but it still shoots better and longer than the .223. If 600 is your limit the 6.8 will eat that up. Most over the counter ammo is made to the original 6.8 SPC not SPC II so it is slower and has less pressure than it needs to be. The effective limit of the 6.8 is about 800 yards. Someone, I forgot who, built a 140g round with better B.C. that was supposed to be supersonic at 1000y for the SPC II. Never saw any so might have been vaporware. Supposedly used a Berger bullet. I built an AR rifle for DMR in 6.8 SPC II. Unfortunately my shooting schedule has never allowed me to spend the time to develop it or fit the matches in (same with the .308 bolt gun I built for the LRC matches). So I use it for groundhog eradication at the farm.

 

[jimbobborg]

I agree about the bullet issue, but it still shoots better and longer than the .223. If 600 is your limit the 6.8 will eat that up. Most over the counter ammo is made to the original 6.8 SPC not SPC II so it is slower and has less pressure than it needs to be. The effective limit of the 6.8 is about 800 yards. Someone, I forgot who, built a 140g round with better B.C. that was supposed to be supersonic at 1000y for the SPC II. Never saw any so might have been vaporware. Supposedly used a Berger bullet. I built an AR rifle for DMR in 6.8 SPC II. Unfortunately my shooting schedule has never allowed me to spend the time to develop it or fit the matches in (same with the .308 bolt gun I built for the LRC matches). So I use it for groundhog eradication at the farm.

You mean this? http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?29143-SSA-6-8SPC-140gr-VLD-Berger-Now-Available Looks like Nosler bought out SSA

 

[1time]

You mean this? http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?29143-SSA-6-8SPC-140gr-VLD-Berger-Now-Available Looks like Nosler bought out SSA

That looks like it could be a game changer. I always wondered why the .277's got left out of the BC race.

 

[atblis]

Berger 140s VLD .277" What do those cost?

My impression is that 6.5mm will have better value bullets that perform similarly (like half the price). That alone would steer me towards the 6.5 Grendel. Lapua brass is nice too.

Start Plugging in numbers here
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

 

[Bootknife]

Have You looked at 25-45 Sharps?

 

[atblis]

I would have used the Nosler 123 gr Custom Competitions as they can be had for <$20 per 100, but they weren't in the calculator. The take away is that the 6.8 approaches Grendel performance using a bullet that costs twice as much (maybe more).

 

[retrorichard]

6.8

Ssa makes some nice 6.8 long range rounds.