Ammo Shakes

[trapture]

So I loaded six rounds of .303 via grain count from my loading book. I had to seat the first five rounds awe fully deep into the case to prevent the powder from shaking around in the case. I was using the minimum load of 38 grains. Then I tried 42 grains of 4064 powder and that one was seated right about the right in the case. 4064 is a stick powder very close to the military powder of WWII from what I hear, can anyone give guidance on this issue with the shaking powder. I'm thinking I may have to unload the five rounds of 38 grains and seek some more help.

 

[pauln]

Seat the bullets so that the cartridge overall length matches what is shown in your loading manual ( mine shows 2.915"-3.075" OAL depending on the bullet for the .303 British ). If you seat it too deep, you reduce the cartridge internal volume which can result in excessive pressure and it must be seated deep enough so that it doesn't contact the rifling in the chamber throat which can also result in excessive pressure. Don't worry about being able to hear the powder shaking around. Also don't reduce the loads more than the recommended minimum shown in the loading manual as this can also result in serious trouble. Some manuals show light charge, low recoil loads. I'll check some of my manuals to see if there are any listed for the .303 later today when I have time. Varying from the published load data is risky. You're taking a chance at blowing up your gun and injuring or killing yourself.

 

[K31]

Pauln is correct.

I would definately disassemble the 38gn loads. There is such a thing as seating a bullet too deep plus you may have a "compressed" load now and unless the loading data calls for that it could be dangerous.

I think you will find that you can hear the powder moving in most large rifle cartridges when you shake them.

 

[BlackBart]

Compressed loads aren't always a bad thing. I can't speak for 303 but when I loaded up 06 with 4350 they were always compressed loads and they worked fine. If you use the correct bullet with correct powder and the OAL is correct you "should" be OK.
I might fire the gun from behind a tree or something once and look for pressure signs if it just doesn't "feel right".

 

[K31]

Compressed loads aren't always a bad thing. I can't speak for 303 but when I loaded up 06 with 4350 they were always compressed loads and they worked fine.

I did not say they were. What I said was not to do so unless the load data called for it

 

[BlackBart]

I did not say they were. What I said was not to do so unless the load data called for it

Chill dude, I was throwing a little more light on the subject.

 

[DZ]

trapture, what do you mean by "grain count"?

 

[Norton]

I might fire the gun from behind a tree or something once and look for pressure signs if it just doesn't "feel right".

If using a questionable load in the first place, I would doubt that it would help the situation to proceed with firing it thereby risking damage to one's self or one's firearm.

I'm far, far, far from being any sort of authority on loading ammunition. In addition to staying at a Holiday Inn last night I have read probably a dozen reloading manuals in the last month and the one thing that they have in common is to say start with the low end of the loads and work up and to also make sure that if the load does not call for compressing the powder that you simply don't compress the powder.

One of the books, I forget which, did an interesting comparision of how just slight variations from the loading tables can drastically raise pressure levels to danger points.

If you're unsure of a load, my layman's advice would be to work up one that is more in line with established guidelines.

Fingers and eyeballs are in short supply these days

 

[Dans390]

you can get load data on line 0r many load manuals, been my experence just today to read @ hodgon.com 47.5 gr & in hornady man 46.5 then in an old speer book 48.0 H4895 will max a 168gr 06
READ READ & LOOK SOME MORE FOR SAFETY
Dan

 

[trapture]

yea I'll remove the loads of the 38 grains and restart those. the 42 grain round seems good but I will reload the 38 grains. Thanks for all of your advice.

 

[BlackBart]

If using a questionable load in the first place, I would doubt that it would help the situation to proceed with firing it thereby risking damage to one's self or one's firearm.

I'm far, far, far from being any sort of authority on loading ammunition. In addition to staying at a Holiday Inn last night I have read probably a dozen reloading manuals in the last month and the one thing that they have in common is to say start with the low end of the loads and work up and to also make sure that if the load does not call for compressing the powder that you simply don't compress the powder.

One of the books, I forget which, did an interesting comparision of how just slight variations from the loading tables can drastically raise pressure levels to danger points.

If you're unsure of a load, my layman's advice would be to work up one that is more in line with established guidelines.

Fingers and eyeballs are in short supply these days

That's a truism, BUT what I'm saying is if said hypothetical load calls for 60 gr of 4350 and OAL is 3 inches with 150 gr bullet of specific manufacture you "should" be OK. Most books I have used (mostly Sierra and Hornady) said caution building up to max loads like -10% or something like that. Also most of the 06 loads I did were compressed as well as many of the .357 loads using the old Hercules Unique powder in my Blackhawk. In short if you're well within limits with the right weapon, compressed doesn't necessarily mean bad or dangerous.
My "arsenal" is pretty fluid since I tire of stuff quicker than I should. I no longer own the 700 in 7mm Mag, the Blackhawk, Savage 110, Springfield or the Mark X. Somehow I got on a auto kick with a Garand, Win Model 100, BAR and a Redhawk to name a few. The Ruger is the only one that I would consider "bulletproof" and I would be much more skeptical with the auto loaders in the upper ranges.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Reloading manuals are THE guide in some aspects. They should tell you what test firearm they used. That particular firearm's barrel will have a twist rate that regulates pressure different than your rifle shooting the same caliber. This is one of the reasons why they stress starting loads Maximum OAL means nothing if the bullet can fit into the magazine and can chamber safely without touching the lands. Some competition shooters prefer to have the bullet actually touch the lands of the rifle. For example the Russians were horrible with that 2X4 called a Mosin Nagant, some of them can shoot the Czech silvertip well and some of them act like your cat, very finicky. Czech Silvertip uses a 147 gr bullet and some of the Russian 91/30 Mosin Nagants favor heavier and longer bullets, (heavy ball)
Rifle twist balance the bullet, the tighter the twist the lighter the bullet and because of tighter twist you can get more pressure.
Slower Twist for heavier bullets.
147 gr czech silvertips can have a way to go before it gets to the lands.

Seat each and every bullet consistantly and keep records of everything. Seat at least a diameter in depth. Its not recommended to to seat less.

 

[zoostation]

Just a word on reloading, as the subject seems to be coming up here more often. And as much as it may sound like one, I can assure you this is not an urban legend by the way. In 2002, one of the managers of Sarco, a large milsurp dealer in New Jersey, was killed in a range accident. Basically he was shooting an old 6mm Lee rifle which for some reason experienced a catastrophic failure, the bolt blew out and straight back. As I understand it the bolt penetrated the front of his skull and shot straight through his brain to the rear, killing him almost instantly.

I don't think anyone will ever know if it was the ammo, the rifle, or both that failed. And let me be clear, I am not trying to say it was in any way the victim's fault, or that he did anything wrong, or that there was anything wrong at all with his ammo. I don't know why the rifle kaboomed and I don't know of anyone who does. I am simply bringing this tragedy up to point out that very bad things can and do happen at the range. Guns can hurt you from both ends, even the smaller ones. Reloading tables are not to be taken for granted, headspace is not to be taken for granted, and signs of overpressure rounds like split casings should be viewed with a great deal of caution. The "stupid factor" built into almost every other activity in our society to keep the sheeple from hurting themselves unless they do something incredibly dumb is not present in our hobby.

Okay rant over

 

[BlackBart]

Just a word on reloading, as the subject seems to be coming up here more often. And as much as it may sound like one, I can assure you this is not an urban legend by the way. In 2002, one of the managers of Sarco, a large milsurp dealer in New Jersey, was killed in a range accident. Basically he was shooting an old 6mm Lee rifle which for some reason experienced a catastrophic failure, the bolt blew out and straight back. As I understand it the bolt penetrated the front of his skull and shot straight through his brain to the rear, killing him almost instantly.

I don't know shi* about the Lee BUT the Carcano is known for doing this exact same thing. As far as 100 year old bolts go Id walk with the Big Three, 3 lug Mausers, Springfields and that ugly assed Limey thing.

 

[zoostation]

I don't know shi* about the Lee BUT the Carcano is known for doing this exact same thing. As far as 100 year old bolts go Id walk with the Big Three, 3 lug Mausers, Springfields and that ugly assed Limey thing.

Now why you gotta talk about Rebecca Peters that way.......

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

First of all there is nothing wrong with hearing and or listening to powder shaking around in the case. You should never be tempted to seat the bullet deeper to stop the powder from shaking around. Get an IMR reloading Book. Get a Speer reloading book. Get a hornady reloading book and reference any and all. Start with seating your rounds to the maximum length called for and let it go at that. ANY TIME you decide to shorten the bullet' OAL Over all length you are increasing the pressure that you don't have any control over.
Getting books listing loads, minimum loads and maximum loads is one step, getting into the minds of those who did it all of their lives is another. I recommend "Pet Loads by Ken Waters" Google it. The more you read his stuff the more you understand how powders work in relation with bullet weights, and calibers. Some powders really don't show their potential until near max. Some powders show potential for a certain bullet weight. Some types of rifles just don't like that powder. His reading gives you a feel for working those powders the way you want to work powders in what you have in your gun rack.
4064 might be 4064, 4831 might be 4831 You need someone to turn that key and "Ken Waters Pet Loads" did it for me.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Black Bart Quoted:

Just a word on reloading, as the subject seems to be coming up here more often. And as much as it may sound like one, I can assure you this is not an urban legend by the way. In 2002, one of the managers of Sarco, a large milsurp dealer in New Jersey, was killed in a range accident. Basically he was shooting an old 6mm Lee rifle which for some reason experienced a catastrophic failure, the bolt blew out and straight back. As I understand it the bolt penetrated the front of his skull and shot straight through his brain to the rear, killing him almost instantly.

Ok let's Clear some muddy waters here. There are a few military rifles (bolt action type) that if you disassemble and reassemble them wrong the bolt will shoot straight back and kill you dead. There is one that I know of and it was a caliber called the 280 Ross (Google It) The Canadian Fella Ross developed a military rifle The Ross Mk III rifle The 280 Ross was the first caliber to reach 3000 fps anywho if you put the bolt back together wrong it would slide back into place and fire killing you. The 280 ross was the very first magnum cartridge (recognized) and extremely accurate; nonetheless it had it's weak point.
Bolt action rifles have lugs that stop the rifle bolt from going back and killing you. If the pressure is too great a healthy percentage of the milsurps out there have an escape hole that the gas goes through for example.. M1903A3 30-06, 8mm Mauser (designed and adopted in 1898). Many more bolt actions were copied off of the mauser to include the M1903A3. Yes we were killing the germans with the M1903 mauser clone while they were still complaining about Stealing patent rights or not paying whatever due them for using their design.
Reloading is safe, rolling your own is safe. Get manuals and cross reference. Look for the beginning signs of over pressure. I will post a thread on looking for signs of over pressure.

 

[marlin.357]

Sorry for getting in so late...

Noticed a few things in the original post.

1. Bullet weight, construction (lead, solid copper, jacketed, etc.), and manufacturer were not identified. Although not as important as weight and construction, the manufacturer may have very specific load data available. X grains of IMR4064 may be OK with a 125 grain lead bullet, but over max with a 150 grain FMJ bullet.

2. The powder specified was specified as 4064. There is IMR 4064 and Accurate XMR 4064. Although they may be very similar they may not be. You need to be more specific. Don't assume they are the same! Load data also changes over time, use current data. Go to the manufactures web site, or call them directly, they will help you.

3. OAL, it's OK if the powder rattles. The OAL should be at or above the minimum specified, not so long as to be jammed into the lands or too long to fit in the magazine. If the bullet has a cannelure use that as a guide for your first reloads. Since this is a military style rifle I'd recommend crimping in the cannelure if available. The optimum OAL is found by trial and error.

4. Your optimum powder charge is also found by trial and error, but stay below the max, maximum is maximum! There also may be some interaction between OAL and powder charge as for as accuracy goes.

5. Get a good reloading manual (or 2) and study it, Lee, Lyman, Speer, Hornady.

6. If you're not sure, ask! We'll try to help, it's not rocket science, but it's not always obvious either.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

marlin 357 quoted:

2. The powder specified was specified as 4064. There is IMR 4064 and Accurate XMR 4064. Although they may be very similar they may not be. You need to be more specific. Don't assume they are the same! Load data also changes over time, use current data. Go to the manufactures web site, or call them directly, they will help you

Absolutely correct. IMR 4064 is different than XMR 4064. Treat them differently.

Three companies make 4350 type powder

IMR co 4350
Hodgon 4350
Accurate Arms 4350