Gun ban

[erwos]

I keep hearing local gun shops saying that piston rifles (AR15) wont be banned.
This has me confused

It's because the AG and MSP have never fully clarified what makes a copy, and use a weird set of subjective criteria. It would be great if they clarified this in the updated COMAR.

 

[dblas]

The sig m400 and the sig 516 both have telescopic stocks, not folding. They do have a flash suppressor or muzzle brake, or what ever you call it. There for it only has one of the three characteristics, which it needs two to qualify as a copy cat, I didn't know that the m400 was considered an imitation of the ar15, I thought it was built on the platform but was different. I guess it is very similar and there for an imitation or so called " copy". The jury is still out on the 516. To be safe, I bought a m400 and about 4 lower recievers. If the 516 isn't banned great, I'll get one. If it is, I will have a couple of lower recievers to play with. I am extremely happy to hear that the sig716, will be forsale post October 1st.

If it is a collapsable stock and not a folding stock, then they have no features for the two feature test.

It needs to be a foldable stock to qualify, collapsable stocks were stricken from the bill.

To be clear the three features are:

Folding Stock
Grenade or Flare Launcher
Flash Supressor

 

[tc617]

I went to the SIG SAUER website and I noticed that the SIGM400 comes with a bullet button installed from the manufacture, and it made me realize something that I have never noticed in SB281... The phrase "accept a detachable magazine". This means that a bullet button are absolutely useless in getting a rifle with a detachable magazine around SB281.

Though a bullet button will prevent the "removal of a detachable magazine" without a tool, once the magazine well is empty it will readily "accept a detachable magazine". I wonder if someone knowledge of firearms helped the Maryland legislators close this loophole, or did they just stumble onto it by dumb luck?

 

[dblas]

I went to the SIG SAUER website and I noticed that the SIGM400 comes with a bullet button installed from the manufacture, and it made me realize something that I have never noticed in SB281... The phrase "accept a detachable magazine". This means that a bullet button are absolutely useless in getting a rifle with a detachable magazine around SB281.

Though a bullet button will prevent the "removal of a detachable magazine" without a tool, once the magazine well is empty it will readily "accept a detachable magazine". I wonder if someone knowledge of firearms helped the Maryland legislators close this loophole, or did they just stumble onto it by dumb luck?

Umm, not really, any firearm that needs a "tool" to remove the magazine (Bullet Button) is not considered a firearm with a detachable magazine. Detachable magazine is defined as being removeable without the need for any tools. So any firearm with a bullet button, regardless of magazine size should be good to go.

 

[daggo66]

You are mixing the future law (10/1) with the current law. You cannot combine the two and try to make sense of it. The Sig rifles you mentioned are AR15's. They will be banned on 10/1. The copy cat part comes in as of 10/1, not now. After 10/1 when Sig trys to sell a rifle that is not an AR15, it will have to pass the copy cat test. This is an attempt to prevent someone from inventing the "AR16."

 

[CrawfishStu]

Isn't the 516 a piston gun?

 

[vette80]

Isn't the 516 a piston gun?

correct

 

[white rabbitt]

Yeah, that "copycat" portion of the law does not matter when it comes to an AR-15.

(R) “Regulated firearm” means:
(1) a handgun; or
(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:
(i) American Arms Spectre da Semiautomatic carbine;
(ii) AK–47 in all forms;
(iii) Algimec AGM–1 type semi–auto;
(iv) AR 100 type semi–auto;
(v) AR 180 type semi–auto;
(vi) Argentine L.S.R. semi–auto;
(vii) Australian Automatic Arms SAR type semi–auto;
(viii) Auto–Ordnance Thompson M1 and 1927 semi–automatics;
(ix) Barrett light .50 cal. semi–auto;
(x) Beretta AR70 type semi–auto;
(xi) Bushmaster semi–auto rifle;SENATE BILL 281 23
(xii) Calico models M–100 and M–900;
(xiii) CIS SR 88 type semi–auto;
(xiv) Claridge HI TEC C–9 carbines;
(xv) Colt AR–15, CAR–15, and all imitations except Colt AR–15 Sporter H–BAR rifle;

(D) “ASSAULT WEAPON” MEANS:
(1) AN ASSAULT LONG GUN;
(2) AN ASSAULT PISTOL; OR
(3) A COPYCAT WEAPON.

(B) “ASSAULT LONG GUN” MEANS ANY ASSAULT WEAPON LISTED UNDER § 5–101(R)(2) OF THE PUBLIC SAFETY ARTICLE.

So, the AR-15 falls squarely in the "assault long gun"definition and not the copycat weapon definition. Hence, it is considered an "assault weapon".

After October 1, 2013, it becomes illegal to possess an assault weapon unless you owned it prior to the cutoff date.

I don't know much about the Sig series of rifles, but is it possible that the Sig 516, etc. are piston driven and not gas driven like the AR-15?

Just looked at the website and that is not the case. Maybe Sig is going to make the argument that the operating system on the 516 is different than the operating system on the standard AR-15 platform.

So, I guess that would mean that a baseball bat could be considered an assault weapon if one uses it in an offensive nature ? But really, then a 22 caliber with a pistol grip and a after market tactical stock with a 15 round clip would be an assault weapon ?

You know ... WHat would happen if everyone, from "Gun Dealers" to private owners and/or buyers/sellers simply ignored the "Gun Laws/Regulations ? Would they arrest and prosecute millions of Americans ? That would mean overwhelming the court and prison systems would it not ? Non violent civil disobedience/protest ?

Anyway, just saying ... ;-)

 

[daggo66]

So, I guess that would mean that a baseball bat could be considered an assault weapon if one uses it in an offensive nature ? But really, then a 22 caliber with a pistol grip and a after market tactical stock with a 15 round clip would be an assault weapon ? You know ... WHat would happen if everyone, from "Gun Dealers" to private owners and/or buyers/sellers simply ignored the "Gun Laws/Regulations ? Would they arrest and prosecute millions of Americans ? That would mean overwhelming the court and prison systems would it not ? Non violent civil disobedience/protest ?

Anyway, just saying ... ;-)

Nope. Rimfire is excluded. You could do yourself a big favor by actually reading the law. There is a very good thread here that breaks it down.

 

[Mr H]

Nope. Rimfire is excluded. You could do yourself a big favor by actually readng the law. There is a very good thread here that breaks it down.

Thank you.

I was going to respond earlier today, but had a burr under my saddle and I might not have been as genteel.......

 

[Daniel87]

so are most HBAR AR15's legal after 10/1? i know they are currently considered unregulated

 

[dblas]

so are most HBAR AR15's legal after 10/1? i know they are currently considered unregulated

All HBARS will be cash and carry per the latest MSP LD Bulletin

 

[Shamr0ck]

All HBARS will be cash and carry per the latest MSP LD Bulletin

quoting from the attached document in case it doesn't open on phones/iPads...

Question posed to MSP

After October 1, 2013, an AR-15 HBar/Heavy Barrel will still not be regulated, however could an
AR-15 HBar/Heavy Barrel or any semiautomatic center fire be considered a copycat weapon?​

MSP Answer

The Colt AR-15 H-BAR is excluded from the definition of "assault long gun."

However, a Colt AR-15 H-BAR or any semiautomatic center fire rifle that meets the definition
set forth in CR 4-301(e) ("(i) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that can accept a detachable
magazine and has any two of the following: 1. a folding stock; 2. a grenade launcher; or 3. a
flash suppressor; (ii) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds; (iii) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that has an overall
length of less than 29 inches.") would be a "copycat weapon."​

---------------------

If I take the MSP answer specifically at their word, I see that ONLY the Colt AR-15 H-BAR rifle is excluded from the definition of "assault long gun" and any other AR-15, which happens to have a heavy profile barrel would fall into the 'copy cap' bucket if the firearm met the requirements listed above.

what is unclear at this early hour (to me at least) is whether in order to be considered a copycat the firearm must meet

1. ANY of the conditions listed (2 features *OR* fixed mag with capacity to accept more than 10 rounds *OR* less than 29 inches)
2. ALL of the conditions listed
3. ANY TWO of the conditions listed

I'm not familiar enough with how the COMAR regs get written and whether past precedent has any bearing and my concern would be that somewhere within MSP someone can simply say - 'Well, we are now going to enforce the law as written so any Heavy Barrel AR which is not marked COLT H-BAR is now considered a SB281 copycat.

Not trying to pee in anyone's wheaties, just tring to be very careful as I don't trust the AG, MSP nor my ability to read tea leaves.

I hope I'm wrong and AR-15s with Heavy Barrels will remain purchasable after 01 Oct. Otherwise, it will kill the Service Rifle competitions as new shooters will have a much harder time entering the sport.

 

[dblas]

quoting from the attached document in case it doesn't open on phones/iPads...

Question posed to MSP

After October 1, 2013, an AR-15 HBar/Heavy Barrel will still not be regulated, however could an
AR-15 HBar/Heavy Barrel or any semiautomatic center fire be considered a copycat weapon?​

MSP Answer

The Colt AR-15 H-BAR is excluded from the definition of "assault long gun."

However, a Colt AR-15 H-BAR or any semiautomatic center fire rifle that meets the definition
set forth in CR 4-301(e) ("(i) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that can accept a detachable
magazine and has any two of the following: 1. a folding stock; 2. a grenade launcher; or 3. a
flash suppressor; (ii) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the
capacity to accept more than 10 rounds; (iii) A semiautomatic center fire rifle that has an overall
length of less than 29 inches.") would be a "copycat weapon."​

---------------------

If I take the MSP answer specifically at their word, I see that ONLY the Colt AR-15 H-BAR rifle is excluded from the definition of "assault long gun" and any other AR-15, which happens to have a heavy profile barrel would fall into the 'copy cap' bucket if the firearm met the requirements listed above.

what is unclear at this early hour (to me at least) is whether in order to be considered a copycat the firearm must meet

1. ANY of the conditions listed (2 features *OR* fixed mag with capacity to accept more than 10 rounds *OR* less than 29 inches)
2. ALL of the conditions listed
3. ANY TWO of the conditions listed

I'm not familiar enough with how the COMAR regs get written and whether past precedent has any bearing and my concern would be that somewhere within MSP someone can simply say - 'Well, we are now going to enforce the law as written so any Heavy Barrel AR which is not marked COLT H-BAR is now considered a SB281 copycat.

Not trying to pee in anyone's wheaties, just tring to be very careful as I don't trust the AG, MSP nor my ability to read tea leaves.

I hope I'm wrong and AR-15s with Heavy Barrels will remain purchasable after 01 Oct. Otherwise, it will kill the Service Rifle competitions as new shooters will have a much harder time entering the sport.

Are we really going to go through this discussion again?

I don't trust your ability to read tea leaves either.

As of today, MSP has stated any HBAR is cash and carry. Will that change? not without MSP coming out and saying so. Will they? I doubt it, but who knows. So for now, based on what MSP is doing NOW, HBARS are cash and carry, and will continue to be so after 10/1.

If you have an issue with the above and think the above is wrong, it is really simple to prove. Call MSP LD and ask them for a clarification on the bulletin? I and several others made calls earlier this year to get a clarification on "any HBAR" or Colt only HBAR, any every time was told ANY HBAR was cash and carry.