I can only own 2 handguns??

[mikec]

That depends on where the transaction occurs. If a Maryland resident with a federal C&R license physically travels to another state and purchases a C&R-eligible handgun in that other state, OR if the C&R license holder purchases a C&R-eligible handgun from an out-of-state source and has it shipped directly to his licensed address in Maryland, then Maryland does not record or regulate that transaction. The Maryland State Police agree that such transactions are outside the jurisdiction of Maryland law, and they are legal under federal law as long as the C&R license holder follows all the C&R rules.

But, if a Maryland resident who is a C&R licensee comes across (for example) a 50-year-old (C&R-eligible) handgun at an estate sale IN MARYLAND, the usual Maryland-imposed transfer requirements do still apply -- the 77R application to transfer, the seven-day waiting period with background check, etc.. including involvement of either a state-licensed dealer or a "designated law enforcement agency" to sign the 77R paperwork. It is a C&R transaction in the eyes of the feds, but that does not "immunize" the transaction from state-imposed requirements.

I know that some Maryland resident C&R holders think that they can transfer C&R-eligible handguns back and forth with other Maryland residents, within Maryland, without observing any of the state-imposed transfer requirements, especially when they are trading with other C&R licensees. But it is clear that is not the position of the Maryland State Police. Nor have I been able to find anything in Maryland statutes or in the Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR) that would justify any claim that C&R-eligible handguns, when transferred by C&R license holders entirely within Maryland, are subject to any different state-imposed transfer requirements than any other handguns (except the one-handgun-a-month law does not apply -- see below). If someone can produce any legal authority for such a claim, I would be most interested to see it.

(None of this discussion applies to an "antique" handgun, which includes any handgun manufactured before 1899, which by Maryland-law definition is not a "handgun" at all and therefore not subject to the Maryland transfer requirements.)

A federal C&R license holder is exempt from Maryland's one-handgun-a-month law, even if he does not have the state-issued "collector" status. This is explicitly provided in COMAR 29.03.01.04.

I am not a lawyer and this is not "legal advice."

ThatIsAFact

You are correct, I usually ignore any in state C&R transactions since MD controls those transactions. It is after all a logical view. The transaction isn't INTERSTATE if two MD residents want to trade guns, it is an INTRASTATE transfer, the Feds should have no control and only state law applies.

I was actually unaware that a C&R holder is exempt from the one in 30 day rule.

 

[JRoCc]

Ok..it was apparently my misinterpretation....their even is a sign stating the purchase law etc etc...

Anyway...I picked my G23 up this morning so all is well.

 

[joppaj]

Anyway...I picked my G23 up this morning so all is well.

Fine choice

 

[KevinB]

A federal C&R license holder is exempt from Maryland's one-handgun-a-month law, even if he does not have the state-issued "collector" status. This is explicitly provided in COMAR 29.03.01.04.

ThatIsAFact

I just perused 29.03.01.04, and could find nothing that supports the statement above. If you would, please point out which statement in there provides some sort of explanation or proof. I'm trying not to be a douche about this, but that was a strong statement to make and we do have some impressionable minds around here. Thanks!

 

[Chaunsey]

i too would really like some confirmation on that cause if i dont have to id rather not get the MD designated collector thing.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

here you go

I just perused 29.03.01.04, and could find nothing that supports the statement above. If you would, please point out which statement in there provides some sort of explanation or proof. I'm trying not to be a douche about this, but that was a strong statement to make and we do have some impressionable minds around here. Thanks!

The pertinent provision is found at 29.03.01.04 (D). Here is a copy-and-paste:

D. For the purpose of this regulation, a collector is an individual who:

(1) Devotes time and attention to acquiring certain types of regulated firearms for the enhancement of the collector's personal collection and does not act as a firearm dealer; or

(2) Possesses a Federal Collector's License (Curio and Relics).


Remember, the one-handgun-a-month statutory language, which I pasted in high in this thread, just makes an exception for purchases for private collections ("the purchase of the regulated firearms is for a private collection or a collector series"), without saying anything about how this is to be determined in any particular case. So by regulation, the Maryland State Police created the "designated collector" process, in 29.03.01.04. [More on this below in the June 7 posts.]

Those who wish to study any of the MSP regulations dealing with firearms should go to this site and browse through or search within Title 29:
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/comar.aspx

 

[Markp]

The pertinent provision is found at 29.03.01.04 (D). Here is a copy-and-paste:

D. For the purpose of this regulation, a collector is an individual who:

(1) Devotes time and attention to acquiring certain types of regulated firearms for the enhancement of the collector's personal collection and does not act as a firearm dealer; or

(2) Possesses a Federal Collector's License (Curio and Relics).


Remember, the one-handgun-a-month statutory language, which I pasted in high in this thread, just makes an exception for purchases for private collections ("the purchase of the regulated firearms is for a private collection or a collector series"), without saying anything about how this is to be determined in any particular case. So by regulation, the Maryland State Police created the "designated collector" process, in 29.03.01.04.

In the portion of the regulation that I have just quoted, it provides that there are two alternate ways to be regarded as a "collector" for purposes of the "multiple purchase" law. (D)(1) is a summary of the type of person who would qualify for the "designated collector" status from the MSP. But (D)(2) confers the same status (with respect to multiple purchases) on anyone who holds a federal C&R license.

Those who wish to study any of the MSP regulations dealing with firearms should go to this site and browse through or search within Title 29:
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/comar.aspx

And while all that is true, I still had to get my MD collectors letter to satisfy my local FFL's who were stuck in the fact that without the letter, your C&R license wasn't good enough.

(EDIT: and this is why: "29.03.01.04 (M). An individual must be designated as a collector by the Secretary before applying to purchase multiple regulated firearms as a collector."

Thatisafact, sure you're not a lawyer??? You're navigating the law pretty well for a layperson.

Mark

 

[Modrak]

The pertinent provision is found at 29.03.01.04 (D). Here is a copy-and-paste:

D. For the purpose of this regulation, a collector is an individual who:

(1) Devotes time and attention to acquiring certain types of regulated firearms for the enhancement of the collector's personal collection and does not act as a firearm dealer; or

(2) Possesses a Federal Collector's License (Curio and Relics).


*SNIP*

I think you're missing something here actually. That section only designates what can qualify you to gain collector status. The very NEXT section designates HOW to be classified as a collector, which includes doing the MD paperwork.

E. The Secretary shall adopt an application form to be used by an individual who desires to be designated as a collector. The application shall contain:

I don't believe D supersedes E. You can classify yourself as a collector all you want (as can the Feds), but MD wants to give you the ominous-dominous before they let you play in their sandbox.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, blah blah blah.

 

[Luke 12:49]

Remember, one member here was declined for the Collector status because MSP said he had yet to have a collection. A new gun owner should buy one or two Regulated guns, then apply. If you own none, then how can you be a collector?

I had ZERO "regulated" firarms in my possesion, under my name when I applied for MD Collector status. However, at the time of my application (last Fall '09) I did have two shotguns to my name.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

good point

I think you're missing something here actually. That section only designates what can qualify you to gain collector status. The very NEXT section designates HOW to be classified as a collector, which includes doing the MD paperwork.

He's right -- see my post below.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

I stand corrected

Regarding the relationship between the one-handgun-a-month law, the federal C&R collector's license, and the Maryland "designated collector" status, I originally asserted above, "A federal C&R license holder is exempt from Maryland's one-handgun-a-month law, even if he does not have the state-issued "collector" status. This is explicitly provided in COMAR 29.03.01.04" (and I quoted the language of that regulation).

This statement was challenged by others, and I now withdraw it. The regulation does indeed say that anyone who holds the federal C&R license is, by definition, a "collector" for state-law purposes. However, it also says in effect that you cannot purchase multiple handguns as a collector until you've applied to the Maryland State Police for (and been granted) the "designated collector" status. The application -- the "MSP Regulated Firearms Collector Application and Affidavit" -- summarizes the regulation, including the reference to the C&R licenses. Aside from identifying information, this form asks only a single question: "Describe nature of collecting activities." The MSP assured my friend that if he wrote on that line (truthfully) "Possesses a Federal Collector's License (Curios and Relics)," that would be sufficient justification to grant the "designated collector" status, just like the regulation says. (Of course, any concise truthful summary of collecting activities would also suffice, under the other prong of the definition in the regulation.) But, unless you go through that process of getting the "designated collector" letter, your multiple-purchase transfer won't be approved, whether or not you have a C&R -- unless the specific transaction falls into one of the narrow exceptions specified on MSP form 77 M, "Application for Multiple Purchase of Regulated Firearms," such as "dealer discount" (two-handgun limit), estate sale, or collector auction.

 

[Markp]

We're all here to help each other.... getting through the laws and regulations is NOT easy. You did a great job bringing up COMAR and doing the basic research!

Mark

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Thanks for all of the effort and research to all. Now we need to find a way to get around the waiting period. Maybe starting with no waiting period for designated collectors would pass by without much notice by the other side. I said it before, we need to nibble back our rights in a gradual way, the way they take them from us. Baby steps aren't noticed as much, and are on our path towards eventual CCW here.

MH

 

[mikec]

MH, IF as Novus mentioned in the past, the seven day period is actually a "paper processing period" and since MSP allows dealers to use a fax to transmit the forms what do you think about this:

Any citizen who wishes to take part of this program may, it is voluntary. Purchasing MD Regulated firearms via filling out the 77R forms and encountering a delay would still be possible.

Step1) Citizen goes to a MSP barracks and fills out a simple form that contains most of the questions on the 77R. Form is signed and a modest fee is paid. MSP does the normal background check and then contacts the applicant. The applicant then gets a laminated card, like a drivers license. Included on the card is a photo and the applicant's proof of training number and a ID number.

Step2) MSP creates a very simple Regulated Firearms purchase form. A very simple .DOC file that every FFL gets. FFL would print a copy for each purchase. No need for the state to have forms printed.

Step 3) When you or I go to buy a Regulated Firearm, we show FFL the card. They verify photo with our face and info. We then fill out the form and sign it. Dealer adds their info and info about firearm, same as now. Form is faxed to MSP. As soon as form is processed by MSP they fax it back to dealer who then contacts buyer to pick up gun. No mandatory seven day wait. As soon as check is done, the gun is free to be picked up.

When the original application is filled out, MSP does a background check on the applicant. That sets a baseline. Either the applicant can or can't buy a Regulated Firearm in MD. It is either YES or NO at that point. If I then go to buy a handgun six months later, MSP only has to check six months of data to see if my legal status has changed.

This system will not eliminate a background check, it just removes the now unneeded delay.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

mikec,

You've got some great ideas in there. My concern with the card, though, is that it will be morphed into a gun/gun owner registration program, not unlike the HB820 that we defeated earlier this year. Makes some sense though, kinda a pre-approval card.

What I would like to see is the waiting period removed for subsequent firearm purchases. If the seven day wait is for mail time, as the law was written, then it needs to be modernized, as the instant NICS check is. If it a "cooling off" period that the antis have turned it into, then it has no bearing on the owner of other handguns, or even long guns. Either way, it is useless, but I would be willing to concede it being in place for a person's first regulated purchase, if they would do away with it for repeated purchases.

While we are on the topic of my Maryland Firearm Law Streamline Act , I would like to see the 77R eliminated, and a copy of the 4473 sent to MSP instead. They contain pretty much the same info and questions anyway. Save the buyer, the dealer, and the MSP some time and paperwork. Less forms means less record keeping, less cost, and less chance of a mistake when filing them out.

Don't even get me started on the ridiculous fired cartridge case law. At the very least, lets get it removed as a requirement for revolvers, as they don't eject the cases at the scene of the crime, making it a moot point, for the way the law is supposed to work.

I truly believe that we need to work on these type of issues first, if we want to have a chance of CCW any time soon. These changes I think could be made without much fuss, flying low under the radar of the antis, if presented in a common sense way. Once that happens, CCW won't be such a leap. Now, to those of you that are a little more politically involved than me, how do we start?

MH

 

[mikec]

MH,
I figured someone might object about the ID card becoming like IL's FOID or worse.

As far as MSP getting a copy of the 4473, I think that would require a rewriting of Federal code that people in other states would not want to see.

I do think MSP and the state of MD (and the taxpayers) could do away with the current 77R form and use an electronic version like I mentioned. One FFL said that he would not use any internet based system, like the eForm 4473, because of security and data concerns. If the FFL just printed a form when they needed it and faxed it like now, those concerns would go away.

Some politician or MSP person probably complain about a unique serial number on the forms. An easy way to fix that is dealer's ID #/year/month/date/001 for the first for of the day, next one would be dealer's ID #/year/month/date/002 and so on. How many FFL's will fill out 999 Regulated Firearms forms in a day? If a shop is open 10 hours day, that would mean 100 sales an hour. Heck, the shop owner would pass out after selling 200 guns in two hours.

As far as the seven day delay, if a FFL still mails the form in, it stays, if the shop uses fax, then it should be reduced to 24 hours or when MSP faxes the form back to the dealer. Not allowing transfers on Sunday's to me violates the separation of Church and State. Allow the transfer as long as MSP sent the form back.

 

[cad424]

What's the point of the 30 day rule? I understand that the point of the day waiting period is a "cooling off" period but what about the 30 day rule? Both rules are equally ridiculous.

 

[mikec]

I wasn't here when that bill was introduced and became law but I would guess there were several thoughts behind it. 1) it makes gun buying more difficult for the law abiding person. Basic harassment by the state. 2) maybe it stops some sicko from buying several handguns and going on a shooting spree. YES, a shotgun is usually more lethal, but handguns are evil in the minds of the anti gun crowd.

The one in 30 day "limits" you to a maximum of 12 regulated guns, UNLESS you also have a C&R license and you buy C&R handguns out of state. The anti's either didn't think of that or they figure their restrictions were enough to make the sheep think they were doing something "positive". All they were doing was patting each other on the back and not addressing anything.

 

[cad424]

I wasn't here when that bill was introduced and became law but I would guess there were several thoughts behind it. 1) it makes gun buying more difficult for the law abiding person. Basic harassment by the state. 2) maybe it stops some sicko from buying several handguns and going on a shooting spree. YES, a shotgun is usually more lethal, but handguns are evil in the minds of the anti gun crowd.

The one in 30 day "limits" you to a maximum of 12 regulated guns, UNLESS you also have a C&R license and you buy C&R handguns out of state. The anti's either didn't think of that or they figure their restrictions were enough to make the sheep think they were doing something "positive". All they were doing was patting each other on the back and not addressing anything.

That's exactly it. I was being sarcastic when asking what the purpose was. The shotgun reference is the best example. a 12 gauge is cash and carry, very destructive yet the hand gun sales are limited. It's just pure idiocracy.

 

[evilf150]

I think the wording in the law/regulations go by the transfer date. So until you actually walk out with the regulated firearm no transfer (to you) has taken place up to that point.

I believe you are correct and it is 30 days from the day you actually took possession of the regulated firearm.

You guys are rigth on the money 30 days from pick up .

I have a question to add here.When does the 30 days start?The date of purchase or the date the transfer is approved by MSP.I bought a reg. handgun from an internet site ,paid by check and had transfer done.I am looking for another used gun that is regulated.When am I cleared to buy.