IDPA Legality of my G21SF

[smores]

Ok. I am currently classified as EX in SSP. I plan on shooting SSP, ESP and CDP with various pistols I own. I would like to use my GLOCK 21SF in my next classifier, where I'll classify for all three semi-auto pistols at once, using a pistol legal across all divisions. As I understand it, in the rule book, as long as I inform the match director of my intent to do this my score will count across SSP, ESP and CDP. I want to shoot at high level events once I become competitive enough to do so, and want my equipment to be legit. It's not my intent to push the envelope of the rules (and DEFINITELY not to break them), but the pistol I've modified has me scratching my head as it does not particularly fit within the strict confines of the rules...

So now that I've laid out my intent, let's discuss the pistol. It's a GLOCK 21SF RTF2. I've been told the RTF models are fine for SSP. See the following rules:

8.2.1.1.1.
Have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units. Discontinued models must have had a total production of 20,000 units.

Now I have no idea how many RTF pistols are out there or have been produced, but everyone I've asked (none have been high-level match directors) have said "they're fine". The RTF is a factory finish, and is not added stippling or anything else. Skateboard tape is legal in SSP, which is roughly what the RTF frame does performance-wise in terms of improving grip.

I know my AmeriGlo CAP sights and Vickers magazine catch are legal. The next part gets a little tricky. I have a GLOCK factory threaded barrel that I shoot with. I feel it shoots a little more accurately than the barrel the pistol came with, and it IS a factory barrel in the original caliber. It fits in "the box" just fine. Here is the only rule that mentions replacement barrels in SSP:

8.2.1.3.11.
Replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.

So, I argue that the barrel is one of factory configuration, as it was made by GLOCK. Has anyone ever seen a shooter get DQ'd for using a threaded barrel? Would a USP .45 with an H&K threaded barrel be illegal while a USP .45 TACTICAL would be just fine? The overall weight and dimensions are only barely altered, while I feel this barrel is a little more accurate.

Should I just suck it up and use the standard barrel or do you guys think I can use the threaded one without a problem?

 

[inkd]

I haven't read the new rule book since my membership is expored and I'm not actively competing but based on the sections of the rule book you posted I think you will be just fine.

You could possible contact Glock to get confirmation of how many 21SF models were produced but would I think that they have exceeded 2k units.

As far as the threaded barrel, again, from your quote of the rule book, I think it will be fine. It's a factory barrel in 45acp. There maybe could be an arguement made, and this is pure speculation, that having a thread protector could be a problem since someone may throw out that it could be considered a weighted muzzle decice or something.

I think you are good to go though.

 

[aaron.foulk]

Not an MD, but here goes...
The Vickers magazine catch puts you in ESP. Rather it takes the possibility of simultaneous SSP classification off the table.
Here's the rule.

8.2.1.4. SSP Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list):
8.2.1.4.2. Aftermarket or visibly modified magazine releases, slide stops, safety levers, de-cocking levers, and hammers.

A stock extended mag catch from a 34 or 35, if it were a drop in replacement, would be fine though.

As far as the frame goes ,not sure of any production numbers of the RTF2 and have absolutely no idea how that rule can be enforced without a central repository similar to the USPSA production gun list. I'd not worry about it until one shows up.

As far as the barrel rule goes, my question would be whether the quoted rule referred to a factory configuration gun or a factory designed barrel. My guess is that a threaded barrel is not of "factory configuration" and would not be legal. This is subject to overrule from any MD or IDPA HQ. MD's don't necessarily have any more formal rulebook training than most SO's so the answer from two different MDs at the same club could vary.

If you swap the barrels out, I think you'd be good for ESP and CDP.

If you want all three classifications I'd swap the barrel for the stock one and swap out the catch for a stock one. The likelihood of being caught with the Vickers catch is low, but you'd know.

Good questions though.

 

[Scottysan]

If the match directors have OK'd it... Then it's fine.
Though it might be wise to keep original parts in your kit at matches...just in case

 

[smores]

Thanks for the help. I skipped over the mag catch thing, I forgot it's ok for the smaller 9/.40/.357 guns.

The main reason I got the Vickers catch was because of the rounded edges.... can I round the edges on the factory catch so it won't dig into my support hand, or does that count as "visibly modified"?

Sounds like I need to do some more shooting from the bench and see if the factory barrel is really as "bad" as I thought it was. I'm talking a difference of .5"-1" at 20 yds which is really nothing.

Si vis pacem, para bellvm.

 

[aaron.foulk]

Vickers catch bumps you out of SSP in all caliber of guns because it is an aftermarket part. The difference is that it is less likely to be noticed in the 34/35 because a stock extended option is available.

Rounded edges of a stock part will also bump you out of SSP because of the visibly modified rationale. You don't get much room for even basic mods in SSP at all.

Again, likelihood of being caught at local matches is low. You'd pretty much have to confess to you nearest SO who would change your entry to an appropriate division instead of applying penalties or DQ's.
Sanctioned matches are a whole different thing. Depending on size and stature of the match, equipment checks could be thorough.

My recommendation would be to just swap the barrel and collect the ESP and CDP classifications and move along.

 

[smores]

True. I hate the sharp edges on that mag catch but love everything else.

I have a G34 and G19 I'll run in SSP I guess.

Si vis pacem, para bellvm.

 

[pop-gunner]

Check the IDPA forum to see if this has been asked...If no info there contact Robert Ray.

 

[mrozowjj]

The RTF frame is good across all divisions

The mag catch and threaded barrel would be iffy. The mag catch is definintely a no-go for SSP as it's visibly different and modifying one would put you in the same place.

The threaded barrel would be an issue as I understand the rules because there is not a configuration from the Glock factory with a threaded barrel. For example you can use the Glock 34 extended slide release on every Glock out there because it is a factory part offered on some guns from the factory.

If you were shooting a FN FNP45 you could throw a threaded barrel because there is a factory configuration where that is an option. So if you can find a factory configuartion of Glocks that used a threaded barrel you're fine to use it but I can't think of one of the top of my head.

Though I'd just stick with the factory barrel if I was you. In the classifier 18 shots are form 20 yards, 12 shots are from 15 yards and the other 60 are all inside of 10 yards so at those distances I can't imagine the difference in accuracy is significant enough to matter.

 

[smores]

Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated!

Guess I'll suck it up and go totally stock for the classifier. 90 rounds of the corners digging into my palm won't be that bad. That Vickers mag catch is sweet and I'll use it in CDP, though.

I'd rather have a gun that no one can question than to push the envelope. I have a couple NICE 1911s that I built, however they're on S80 frames with the delete plate in there, so those are completely banned. I may have to use my Colt Combat Commander or eventually buy a SA Marine Corps Operator...

 

[mrozowjj]

A 1911 wouldn't be allowed in SSP anyway as it's designed to be carried cocke and locked so it has to be in ESP at least.

Once you're done with the classifier you can put your mag release back on.

 

[smores]

A 1911 wouldn't be allowed in SSP anyway as it's designed to be carried cocke and locked so it has to be in ESP at least.

Once you're done with the classifier you can put your mag release back on.

I just meant in any class... It's had a safety device disabled, right? Despite it never actually having the S80 parts installed, the frame and slide are cut for them.

Si vis pacem, para bellvm.

 

[Bikebreath]

I was going to shoot my S&W M&P 45ACP in all classes. That's not a gun any one would question. I just haven't gotten around to doing so yet.

 

[mrozowjj]

I just meant in any class... It's had a safety device disabled, right? Despite it never actually having the S80 parts installed, the frame and slide are cut for them.

Si vis pacem, para bellvm.

New IDPA rule is if there is a factory version of the gun that doesn't have the feature you can disable it. So in an M&P you can disable the magazine safety because S&W makes a vesion that doesn't have it.

The reason you can't use a 1911 in SSP is because of the fact that it's designed to be fired from SA mode only.

 

[Chasbo00]

New IDPA rule is if there is a factory version of the gun that doesn't have the feature you can disable it. So in an M&P you can disable the magazine safety because S&W makes a vesion that doesn't have it.

Actually, the new rules allow disabling or removing mag disconnects without any conditions:

"8.1.6. Legal Modifications for All Divisions
8.1.6.1. Storage locks may be disabled or removed.
8.1.6.2. Magazine disconnects may be disabled or removed."

 

[smores]

New IDPA rule is if there is a factory version of the gun that doesn't have the feature you can disable it. So in an M&P you can disable the magazine safety because S&W makes a vesion that doesn't have it.

The reason you can't use a 1911 in SSP is because of the fact that it's designed to be fired from SA mode only.

Well... If I built the gun myself and I am the manufacturer... Can I just say it was never designed to have it? Or just because S70 Colts exist, you can disable S80? If so, I'll be very happy. The 1911 I'd want to use for CDP also has a threaded barrel, but I made it that way so it's staying in "factory" configuration.

I'm not trying to run a 1911 in SSP, sorry I wasn't clear on that. I figured as a rule of thumb they were always CDP guns. For SSP and ESP I'll probably always run GLOCKs, maybe something else I have in ESP to mess around with. I have a funky Beretta that should be good for ESP but definitely not SSP.

Si vis pacem, para bellvm.

 

[mrozowjj]

Actually, the new rules allow disabling or removing mag disconnects without any conditions:

"8.1.6. Legal Modifications for All Divisions
8.1.6.1. Storage locks may be disabled or removed.
8.1.6.2. Magazine disconnects may be disabled or removed."

I forgot about that.