Legality of selling 100% Browning 1919 RSP

[Blazin]

My last Browning 1919 kit is on Gunbroker right now, and I will be left with two semi-auto Ohio Rapid Fire right side plates that I completed, had parkerized (pic below), but never installed. Can I legally sell this FTF in Maryland?

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Assuming these are Semi auto, its just like selling a rifle in MD. You should be good as long as you could sell the buyer a normal rifle. ie... no kids.. criminals..etc obviously.

If they go out of state, they just have to go to a FFL.

Also per ATF, if sold they must be marked, serial number, name, place of manufacture....etc. If you don't know what I am talking about ask for more info.

 

[SRD]

A member here had one for sale about a year or so ago and at the time I couldn't find anything preventing the sale (aside from what's already been posted).

 

[IMBLITZVT]

A member here had one for sale about a year or so ago and at the time I couldn't find anything preventing the sale (aside from what's already been posted).

Na, you do hear people claim its illegal to sell a home built gun. That is not true. Its illegal to produce guns for resale without a license. In this case he clearly made them for himself and had plans change. Nothing wrong with selling them. I also think it gets confused with Post sample MGs. These would not be legal for a private individual to buy so they often go demilled.

However in this case, as long as its properly marked, it legal to sell to anyone who can legally buy a rifle.

 

[Topher]

However in this case, as long as its properly marked, it legal to sell to anyone who can legally buy a rifle.

This. I bought one a few years ago and it was treated as a long gun purchase.
Good luck.

 

[smdub]

However in this case, as long as its properly marked, it legal to sell to anyone who can legally buy a rifle.

I don't think it has to be marked. The ATF regs are clear that licensed manufacturers are required to stamp but says nothing about requirements for individuals. Its too close to lunch for me to look up the reg # I think it is legal to sell an unserialed receiver. Old guns that pre-date the serial requirements are still legal for sale. The law does not say you can't sell a receiver w/o serial #. There is no date restriction.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

I don't think it has to be marked. The ATF regs are clear that licensed manufacturers are required to stamp but says nothing about requirements for individuals. Its too close to lunch for me to look up the reg # I think it is legal to sell an unserialed receiver. Old guns that pre-date the serial requirements are still legal for sale. The law does not say you can't sell a receiver w/o serial #. There is no date restriction.

I am fairly sure that when you look it up you will find that what you say is correct when making your own firearm. HOWEVER, if you want to then sell it, it must be marked. So if they are unmarked, they are legal for him to keep. However if they are to be sold that changes things.

 

[wbw2123]

I don't think it has to be marked. The ATF regs are clear that licensed manufacturers are required to stamp but says nothing about requirements for individuals. Its too close to lunch for me to look up the reg # I think it is legal to sell an unserialed receiver. Old guns that pre-date the serial requirements are still legal for sale. The law does not say you can't sell a receiver w/o serial #. There is no date restriction.

I am fairly sure that when you look it up you will find that what you say is correct when making your own firearm. HOWEVER, if you want to then sell it, it must be marked. So if they are unmarked, they are legal for him to keep. However if they are to be sold that changes things.

This actually just came up in another thread. The prevailing regulation is 27 CFR § 478.92 which only applies to "licensed manufacturers" of which a home builder is not. Plenty of pre '68 firearms are transferred with "NSN" for the serial number. A home built firearm that is eventually sold does not need to be marked per 27 CFR § 478.92 because it is not made by a licensed manufacturer

Now just because it's legal, that doesn't mean you won't get hassled by an FFL if you try to transfer an unmarked regulated firearm. Their license, their rules, but the ATF has no such requirement for home builders that I am aware of.

The bigger concern for me would be that some "bare receivers" require a regulated transfer in MD because of the potential to build a pistol. I understand that is a ridiculous premise in this case, but still should be mentioned.

ETA: in this case the side plates would be an "other" on a 4473 because they are virgin and have never been built.

 

[smdub]

The prevailing regulation is 27 CFR § 478.92 which only applies to "licensed manufacturers" of which a home builder is not. Plenty of pre '68 firearms are transferred with "NSN" for the serial number. A home built firearm that is eventually sold does not need to be marked per 27 CFR § 478.92 because it is not made by a licensed manufacturer

Now just because it's legal, that doesn't mean you won't get hassled by an FFL if you try to transfer an unmarked regulated firearm. Their license, their rules, but the ATF has no such requirement for home builders that I am aware of.

^This. Thanks for looking that up.

Agreed, the ATF might give you a hard time. And a shop probably wouldn't transfer it even if it is legal, so out of state sales are probably out. But if its a face-to-face sale in state, it should be perfectly legal to do so.

You have a good point on 'other'. A 1919 w/ spade grips isn't a rifle is it? I seem to recall that gatlings and such transfer as other since they don't have stocks.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

There is a lot of disagreement on this. I don't have the time to search it out in the law. The section referenced above does not deal with non-licensed persons building firearms. However look at the second page, second paragraph of this document. ATF has been wrong before but as you can see, there is at least some base for this statement. I don't have the time today to search out more in the actual law but I do remember reading it and it was required... just hard to find the needle in the hay stack.

 

[smdub]

However look at the second page, second paragraph of this document.

That paragraph states if sold it must conform to 27 CFR 478.92. Thats the EXACT same law we were quoting above and only applies to licensed manufacturers. So your posted ATF letter is just saying 'follow the law'. Nothing new or unusual there.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

That paragraph states if sold it must conform to 27 CFR 478.92. Thats the EXACT same law we were quoting above and only applies to licensed manufacturers. So your posted ATF letter is just saying 'follow the law'. Nothing new or unusual there.

No because the paragraph starts by stating that a NON-LICENSED person must also follow those rules when transferring the firearm! I agree that section is written for licensed manufacturers. What the ATF is saying is that a non-licensed person is held to the same standard if he transfers a firearm he made.

 

[Pinecone]

Won't be the first time a Federal agency letter of interpretation was wrong.

If the Federal law states it only applies to licensed manufacturers, nothing ATF can say make it suddenly apply to others.

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM)
18 U.S.C. 923(i): IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (FIREARM)
27 CFR 478.92: IDENTIFICATION OF FIREARMS
27 CFR 478.123(a): RECORDS MAINTAINED BY MANUFACTURERS
All firearms manufactured, to include firearm frames and receivers that are to be sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of separately, must be identified by a licensed manufacturer in the manner and with the markings required by 18 U.S.C. 923(i) and 27 CFR 478.92 during the manufacturing process. It is reasonable for a licensed manufacturer to have seven (7) days following the date of completion (to include a firearm in knockdown condition, i.e., complete as to all component parts, or a frame or receiver to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately) in which to mark a firearm manufactured, and record its identifying information in the manufacturer’s permanent records. A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of must be marked with all of the required markings; provided, that an alternate means of identification may be approved (i.e., a “non-marking variance”) under section 478.92(a)(4); provided further, that the model designation and caliber or gauge may be omitted without a variance if that information is unknown at the time the frames or receivers are marked.


ATF Rul. 2012-1
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries from manufacturers asking when they must mark the firearms they manufacture. They ask specifically whether the requirement to record firearms in their records of manufacture within seven days also requires marking within that time period.
Some licensed firearms manufacturers produce and assemble complete firearms within their licensed business premises. Others manufacture only frames or receivers that are not parts of complete weapons when transferred to other licensees for further manufacturing. In some instances, a manufacturer may possess firearm frames or receivers for an extended period of time without selling, shipping, or otherwise disposing of them. Such manufacturers may intend to sell these components as frames or receivers without further manufacturing, or intend to manufacture complete weapons from them in the future.


The Gun Control Act (GCA) at 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and its implementing regulation, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “firearm,” in part, to mean: “any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” and includes “the frame or receiver of any such weapon.” The term “firearm frame or receiver” is defined by section 478.11 as “[t]hat part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward position to receive the barrel.” Under 18 U.S.C. 923(i) and 27 CFR 478.92, licensed manufacturers and licensed importers must “identify, by means of a serial number engraved or cast on the receiver or frame of the weapon, in such manner as the Attorney General shall by regulations prescribe, each firearm imported or manufactured . . . .”


Federal regulations at 478.92(a)(1) require manufacturers to identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise placing certain additional information (the model, caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin) on the frame, receiver, or barrel, at a minimum depth. Paragraph 478.92(a)(2) specifies that a “firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of . . . must be identified as required by this section.” As to recordkeeping, section 478.123(a) provides that “[e]ach licensed manufacturer shall record the type, model, caliber or gauge, and serial number of each complete firearm manufactured or otherwise acquired . . . not later than the seventh day following the date such manufacture or acquisition was made.” (emphasis added)


Congress did not specify in section 923(i) a time period for a manufacturer to mark firearms manufactured. However, it is unlikely Congress intended to allow manufacturers to stockpile completed firearms (including finished frames or receivers of such firearms to be sold or shipped separately) without markings for an indefinite period of time. The plain language in section 923(i) requiring that the serial number be “engraved or cast on” the receiver or frame of the firearm demonstrates Congressional intent to require marking as an integral part of the manufacturing process. Otherwise, fully assembled firearms, or finished frames and receivers to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately – stockpiled indefinitely without required markings – would be susceptible to theft or loss without any means to trace them.


Under the regulations, section 478.92, firearms required to be marked at the time of manufacture include both “complete weapons,” and complete frames or receivers of such weapons that are to be sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of separately. Because identifying firearms is an integral part of the manufacturing process, and sections 923(i) and 478.92 do not specify a time period in which to identify firearms, licensed manufacturers are required to mark them during the manufacturing process. Reading the marking requirement for complete weapons in section 478.92(a) together with the seven day recordkeeping requirement for complete firearms in section 478.123(a), ATF concludes that it is reasonable for a manufacturer to have seven (7) days following the date of completion (to include a firearm in knockdown condition, i.e., complete as to all component parts, or a frame or receiver to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately) in which to mark the firearm and record its identifying information in the manufacturer’s permanent records.


Further, because firearm frames and receivers to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately do not have a barrel at the time they are marked, pursuant to 478.92(a)(2), all of the information required by 478.92(a)(1) must be placed on the frame or receiver, unless an alternate means of identification is approved (i.e., a “non-marking variance”) under section 478.92(a)(4). The model designation and the caliber or gauge may be omitted without a variance if that information is unknown at the time the firearm frames or receivers are marked.
Nonetheless, ATF recognizes that a manufacturer may require more than seven days to finish the manufacturing process from beginning to end with the required markings, depending on the nature of the process involved. Some firearms may take more time due to differences in the type and capability of the firearm, availability of materials and components, and complexity of the assembly and finishing processes. ATF also recognizes that the equipment necessary to identify the firearms must be available and in working order.

However, once the entire manufacturing process has ended, manufacturers must ensure that the firearms have been marked in the manner required by section 478.92.


To facilitate inspection and ensure that ATF can determine that a licensed manufacturer has not unreasonably held completed firearms (to include finished frames and receivers to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately) after seven (7) days from the date of completion without their required markings, licensees may take the following steps:
(1) maintain a copy of the current, active license of all contracted licensees;
(2) maintain records of firearms production;
(3) maintain work orders, contracts, and related instructions for services
rendered that describe the various firearm manufacturing processes;
(4) maintain orders for firearm parts that have yet to be received; and
(5) maintain invoices to repair non-functioning machines.


Held, all firearms manufactured, to include firearm frames and receivers that are to be sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of separately, must be identified by a licensed manufacturer in the manner and with the markings required by 18 U.S.C. 923(i) and 27 CFR 478.92 during the manufacturing process.


Held further, it is reasonable for a licensed manufacturer to have seven (7) days following the date of completion (to include a firearm in knockdown condition, i.e., complete as to all component parts, or a frame or receiver to be sold, shipped, or disposed of separately) in which to mark a firearm manufactured, and record its identifying information in the manufacturer’s permanent records.
Held further, a firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of must be marked with all of the required markings; provided, that an alternate means of identification may be approved (i.e., a “non-marking variance”) under section 478.92(a)(4); provided further, that the model designation and caliber or gauge may be omitted without a variance if that information is unknown at the time the frames or receivers are marked.


This ruling is limited to an interpretation of the requirements imposed upon licensed manufacturers under the Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. 921 et. seq., and does not apply to persons making or manufacturing firearms subject to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5801 et. seq. To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: January 12, 2012
B. Todd Jones
Acting Director

Nowhere mentions non-licensed person making a firearm.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Won't be the first time a Federal agency letter of interpretation was wrong.

If the Federal law states it only applies to licensed manufacturers, nothing ATF can say make it suddenly apply to others.

Nowhere mentions non-licensed person making a firearm.

Yes you guys keep going back to the "licensed manufacturer" part of the law. There is a section related to the manufacture by "NON licensed". That is the part of the law we need.

The only thing I am unsure of is if I am getting Non-licensed Regs confused with NFA non-licensed Regs. Sorry, don't have the time to find more right now.

They most certainly can say that Non-licensed person must follow Licensed manufactures marking requirements when selling a home built firearm... So just because this section is written for licensed people, does not mean it will not apply...

If nothing else the above letter clearly says it does. Now it could be wrong but without a reference in the law where they are talking about the manufacture by NON licensed people... I would follow the above letter and mark it!

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Building a Firearm
Question: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?

Answer: For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.


Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

Now I grant their question and answers are not that great but look above. They say "SHOULD BE" marked if sold. Now if this was a legal document, I believe should does not mean shall. Which means you do not REALLY have to do it. But this is not a legal document... so..

Bottom line is the ATF really wants you to even if its not legally required. I will continue to look for the part of the law I remember but can't find it now. Either way with an ATF letter out saying it, I would follow it for now unless you find a letter that supersedes this one.

 

[Pinecone]

Remember, letters of interpretation are only clarifications on what the agency THINKS the regulations or laws say.

I know of one case where the agency send out multiple letters of interpretation on a regulation, and it turns out the regulation did NOT say what they thought it did.

The law cited by the ATF states it applies to licensed manufacturers. So unless someone can find that part of that law that modifies that for some specific item (in this case markings), then it does not apply. And even the ATF FAQ says SHOULD, which is they would LIKE you to do this, but you do not HAVE to do so. In Federal speak, SHALL is the word used for mandatory.