[LEOSA] Weak hand - two handed shooting. Why?

[Biggfoot44]

We've shot weak hand (sorry... non dominant hand for the SWAT guys) for years in my department. Supported and unsupported. Perhaps an injury to your strong hand that doesn't allow you to shoot, but still gives you enough motor control to provide a more stable platform?

Spoon provides the best possible rationale. That said , it doesn't hold up that well , and would have a really narrow window where it might be advantageous.

 

[Defense Initiative]

Why? I've seen a video of an LEO who was wounded in his dominant hand. He continued to shoot with his non-dominant hand with some support from his disabled hand. He had a lot of jams because his grip wasn't firmed up enough. He cleared each jam and continued firing throughout the sequence.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The Real Answer is the Instructional Course Designer who came up with that Course of Fire placed undue consideration on Absolute Symmetry.

2 Hand Weak Hand stages are not unknown, but not common .

Weak ( / support / non dominant) hand only is common , albeit few rounds, up close . Same with Strong / whatever hand only .

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* For Real , Maximum Use of Cover * positions are different from the " Barricade " position as practiced in 99% plus of Qual COF , because of Reasons .

In actual Minimum Exposure positions, using the hand opposite from barricade side does have meaningful % increase of total body exposure * If using conventional -ish 2 Hand Strong side grip/ stance .

Ideally each person needs to work out the ratios of absolute Maximum Cover vs quickly making good hits to end the threat by those means .

* For Me * the sweet spot for " left barricade " is Rollover Two Hand Right Hand . ie gun rotated 90 deg left , resembling Gangsta Style . Recoil control is degraded , but first shot hits are the goal .

***********************

PSA - One hand shooting, from either hand is an important skill , that most people don't give enough attention.

 

[joppaj]

Over the 24 years I've been shooting qual courses, we've done weak hand only and weak hand supported by strong. It seems to change between those every few years. For many years we shot 7 rounds normal, tac reload, switch the gun to weak hand supported by strong and fire 7 more. Every so often someone would get their thumbs crossed behind the gun when they switched hands and the slide would catch them.

To the point of barricades, I'm right handed, left eye dominant. Left side barricade using left hand supported by right actually works pretty well for me.

 

[Blaster229]

Who cares trying to break down why? Familiarize and shoot off hand. It has to be part of your ritual just because.
That's why.

What if you sliced all your strong hand fingers off in a tragic deli slicer incident, are you just going to sell your guns and stop shooting?
You get carpal tunnel surgery and can't use your hand for a week. Are you taking a break from home defense that week because you can't shoot(even badly) with your weak hand?

I'll leave you with this.
There's is nothing that makes you more conscious and aware about grip than when you are slowly and deliberately thinking how to apply it correctly with your off hand.
It gives you a physical feedback of what you should be doing with your strong hand.

Try it sometime. You'll see what I'm saying.

 

[platoonDaddy]

Not to change the subject, but want to give a LARGE SHOUT-OUT to my 74 year old friend who scores at the top of his class each time, believe (getting old) his score is 400. He Q’s twice a year, to cover any illness that might occur and have his Q lapse.

He Q’s at PGCC Police Academy uses Maryland Small Arms & Maryland Police and Correctional Officers Training Academy has their own range in Sykesville.

 

[lazarus]

This sounds like a valid reason (I'm not LEO)
You are right handed and you injure your right index finder to the point it can't pull a trigger, what do you do and did you train for it?

This reminds me of a video of a guy with one hand and how he reloaded his pistol putting it back his holster

This.

I've never been in a gun fight. I've never even been near a gun fight.

I for sure as shit have hurt my index finger badly enough I don't think I could have pulled a trigger, but the rest of my hand was fine. Jam that sucker hard and no go for a week.

Never hurts to practice weak hand, two hand support.

That's a week of the stranger too.

Never know when you might need the skill.

IMHO, I practice weak hand shooting a reasonable amount. I am actually a lot better at it than I thought I would be, if slower. But that is one handed. Using my strong hand as support though is really hard to do without practice. My stance is completely wrong and my hands are doing things they feel like they shouldn't be. In a lot of ways, if you think you might ever need to shoot strong hand supporting, practice it. It is a LOT more foreign for muscle memory than one handed shooting with your weak hand.

 

[5cary]

Harford followed the MPTC standards,which is the MSP standard.

Those guys seemed pretty locked on to me. I didn't get the impression they liked the standards much.

 

[Blaster229]

Not to change the subject, but want to give a LARGE SHOUT-OUT to my 74 year old friend who scores at the top of his class each time, believe (getting old) his score is 400. He Q’s twice a year, to cover any illness that might occur and have his Q lapse.

He Q’s at PGCC Police Academy uses Maryland Small Arms & Maryland Police and Correctional Officers Training Academy has their own range in Sykesville.

MPCTC puts on a nice little few hour class and range qual. I'm scheduled to go back next month. The score is 300, and it isn't hard.

Why does he qual twice a year? He just needs to get his MD permit and qual once a year. LEOSA slots at agencies through the state are at a premium and tough to schedule usually.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I regularly practice Right Only and Left Only every session. Before hand surgery, used to be mostly ambidextrous ( Left equal or slightly better pure accuracy, Right faster .) But nowadays, Left is " good enough " .

Buy two hand Left hand totally not on my radar . A couple times it was required, but frankly was inferior to Left only .

I suppose I could make a project of learning it as a stunt , but can't see a point in taking away from one hand practicing.

 

[platoonDaddy]

MPCTC puts on a nice little few hour class and range qual. I'm scheduled to go back next month. The score is 300, and it isn't hard.

Why does he qual twice a year? He just needs to get his MD permit and qual once a year. LEOSA slots at agencies through the state are at a premium and tough to schedule usually.

He doesn’t want it to lapse, illness etc.

From FBI.Joe -
The FBI-Baltimore operates a shared range east of Frederick with the Frederick PD. I shoot there but not for LEOSA because the FBI does not qualify me per AG orders. I must qualify through the state.

 

[Blaster229]

Those guys seemed pretty locked on to me. I didn't get the impression they liked the standards much.

What standards did you get the feel they like/want?
LEOSA gives states the to determine the qual. It only has to be a "police certified" course. They could literally use an off duty carry course any agency uses. They are shorter/less round counts and no crap out to 25.

The hypocrisy is that LEOSA has no police powers but they sure make sure the shooting standard is that of full time officers.
In PA, the "certified instructor" used a very short and unbelievably easy "Off duty pistol" qual from some PA agency.

MD is just a piece of shit state LOL

 

[Blaster229]

He doesn’t want it to lapse, illness etc.

From FBI.Joe -
The FBI-Baltimore operates a shared range east of Frederick with the Frederick PD. I shoot there but not for LEOSA because the FBI does not qualify me per AG orders. I must qualify through the state.

A WC will cover his lapse.

How does he shoot there? I didn't think it was open to the public. I have shot there often for work. They have some nice SIMS houses too.

The FBI bought and built that range for Frederick.

 

[Blaster229]

Also, If you have a disability like have to walk with a cane or wheelchair, they won't qual you.

These damned quals should be "Ok. Stand here at 10 yards and shoot 10 rounds into the target". Congrats. You passed.

 

[platoonDaddy]

His reply

It is not open to the public. I shoot there under the FBI

 

[Blaster229]

His reply

It is not open to the public. I shoot there under the FBI

Yeah I find that hard to believe. As a retiree, the FAM service wouldn't let me go shoot with them on range days.

 

[outrider58]

File this under "neither here nor there"; the NRA Precision Pistol course has a support hand/strong hand segment.

Never made much sense to me either, other than letting you work a left-hand corner(for a righty) as efficiently as the opposite. It really has little use as a defensive tool, IMO.

 

[Garet Jax]

I recently did my LEOSA re-qual. One of the strings of fire was several rounds using your weak hand, but using your strong hand for support. After decades of military and LEO training, this is the first time I've encountered this.

Educate me. If I have two hands available, why would I use my strong hand to support my weak? I've always thought weak hand shooting was to be utilized when you strong hand was out of action.

I shoot a couple of times a week, and shooting one-handed with my weak hand is a common drill...Why would I practice using my weak hand with strong hand for support? Genuinely curious.

I can't tell you why, but I can tell you that when I had my shoulder surgeries, 1 of my arms was severely limited (really unusable) for weeks. With practice, I was able to shoot equally well on both sides.

 

[platoonDaddy]

Yeah I find that hard to believe. As a retiree, the FAM service wouldn't let me go shoot with them on range days.

Yeah I find that hard to believe. As a retiree, the FAM service wouldn't let me go shoot with them on range days.

U can take this to the bank, the FBI retirees shoot at least once a year, organized and run by FBI.

 

[Blaster229]

U can take this to the bank, the FBI retirees shoot at least once a year, organized and run by FBI.

Well good for them. If it's a sanctioned event then sure. It just sounded like he could go shoot with them willy nilly.