Retention level for OWB carry to prevent gun grab

[ToneGrail]

On the (very rare occasion) that I would opt for open carry, I'm interested to see what everyone else is doing. Please post.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes the various retention levels

To me:

Level 0 (some consider this level 1) = friction only

Level 0.5 = thumb strap (some may consider this level 1)

Level 1 (some consider this level 2) = Any mechanical retention method that clicks the weapon into place such as Serpa, ALS, twist-to-release, rock backwards to release, rotating hood, etc that are not readily apparent to someone who is attempting to grab your weapon from you.

Level 2 (some consider this level 3) = any combination of 2 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

Level 3 (some consider this level 4) = any combination of 3 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

I personally feel that the holsters that make you twist or rock the gun are the most secure as it's not obvious to the criminal how to defeat the retention device as if there was an exposed lever, button, or thumb break snap.


Currently I have a pancake holster with a thumb break strap. However, I think thumb break snaps are too easy to defeat and are really only good for keeping the weapon secured when engaging in physical activities, not a gun grab.

I ordered a Serpa holster, which is better than my thumb break pancake holster but still has the exposed release button. Unfortunately most OWB holsters don't go past level 1 (as described above ) until you get an actual law enforcement duty holster, which I'm not going to do.

 

[hogarth]

Serpa holsters suck. They often lead to negligent discharges, are easily jammed by sand/grit/small stones that get behind the button (think: rolling on the ground with an adversary), and their mounting method is easy to just rip away.

Safariland is a much better solution here.

 

[ToneGrail]

Serpa holsters suck. They often lead to negligent discharges, are easily jammed by sand/grit/small stones that get behind the button (think: rolling on the ground with an adversary), and their mounting method is easy to just rip away.

Safariland is a much better solution here.

Agreed.

However it was the only option for me as both of my carry pistols have been discontinued and Serpa is the only one making them for mine.

I'd much rather prefer one of those newer twist-to-release holsters but alas, I will have to buy a new carry gun for that.

 

[BlackInjun]

LVL 1 Hold holster upside down gun does not fall out
LVL 2 Mechanical
LVL 3 Thumb Strap
Some companies consider 1 and 2 together
to be level 3 and 2 and 3 together to be level 4

 

[jrumann59]

On the (very rare occasion) that I would opt for open carry, I'm interested to see what everyone else is doing. Please post.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes the various retention levels

To me:

Level 0 (some consider this level 1) = friction only

Level 0.5 = thumb strap (some may consider this level 1)

Level 1 (some consider this level 2) = Any mechanical retention method that clicks the weapon into place such as Serpa, ALS, twist-to-release, rock backwards to release, rotating hood, etc that are not readily apparent to someone who is attempting to grab your weapon from you.

Level 2 (some consider this level 3) = any combination of 2 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

Level 3 (some consider this level 4) = any combination of 3 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

I personally feel that the holsters that make you twist or rock the gun are the most secure as it's not obvious to the criminal how to defeat the retention device as if there was an exposed lever, button, or thumb break snap.


Currently I have a pancake holster with a thumb break strap. However, I think thumb break snaps are too easy to defeat and are really only good for keeping the weapon secured when engaging in physical activities, not a gun grab.

I ordered a Serpa holster, which is better than my thumb break pancake holster but still has the exposed release button. Unfortunately most OWB holsters don't go past level 1 (as described above ) until you get an actual law enforcement duty holster, which I'm not going to do.

If I decide to OWB I have my M&P9 with a Veridian Holster with a SERPA style button, the button itself is pretty deep down on the holster and your finger has to clear the holster to get to the trigger and keeps it in the extended position.

 

[Blaster229]

Serpa holsters suck. They often lead to negligent discharges, are easily jammed by sand/grit/small stones that get behind the button (think: rolling on the ground with an adversary), and their mounting method is easy to just rip away.

Safariland is a much better solution here.

They suck for you guys who "run and gun" as far as debris, rolling around on the ground and stuff.
The holsters don't cause ND's. But you know that.
Certainly those who practice drawing, can practice drawing the proper way getting their reps in and be just fine.

That being said, my experience has been that they are only good for a range holster. I don't think they conceal very well.

 

[davsco]

Serpa holsters suck. They often lead to negligent discharges, are easily jammed by sand/grit/small stones that get behind the button (think: rolling on the ground with an adversary), and their mounting method is easy to just rip away.

"often?" hospitals would be kicking out covid patients to make room if that were the case. sure a couple of idiots with horrible trigger finger discipline shot themselves but i've seen nd's with 'regular' holsters also.

i'm mostly aiwb now but when open carrying at 3:00 or so, serpa is a great choice. of course for 2 & 3 gun i use a holster with a hood, that gun ain't coming out no matter what unless you want it to, but i don't want that kind of bulk when out and about around town.

 

[Biggfoot44]

On the (very rare occasion) that I would opt for open carry, I'm interested to see what everyone else is doing. Please post.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes the various retention levels

To me:

Level 0 (some consider this level 1) = friction only

Level 0.5 = thumb strap (some may consider this level 1)

Level 1 (some consider this level 2) = Any mechanical retention method that clicks the weapon into place such as Serpa, ALS, twist-to-release, rock backwards to release, rotating hood, etc that are not readily apparent to someone who is attempting to grab your weapon from you.

Level 2 (some consider this level 3) = any combination of 2 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

Level 3 (some consider this level 4) = any combination of 3 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

The original ranking from back in the day that Retention holsters were first coming in vogue , and language generally used for seeking bids :

Zero = Plain open top .

Level 1 = Basic Strap or Thumb break

Level 2 = Level 1 , Plus serious friction , or similar technology , that requires a good yank , Plus requires gun to be removed pretty much only in intended direction , with pulling from side or angle very difficult to remove .

Level 3 = Level 2 , Plus rocking , twisting , etc in a particular manner .

Above this , no industry standard for a " Level 4 " . Additional mechanisms to be released , multiple different push , twist , pull , rocking motions , etc were usually refered to as Level 3 PLUS .

*************************

Is *some* holster retention better than none ? I certainly think so . But with higher levels there are definate trade offs .

Chief among them - Bulkiness , slower to draw , and increased learning curve to initially gain competence , and requiring on going practice to maintain competence .

Handgun Retention is a cumulative process , not just equipment .

For Agencies , they all have their internal Doctrine Calculus about equipment , Retention specific training , and as a factor in their overall training and doctrines . And of course their perception of likelihood of wading into riots vs quick reaction to sudden threats for their particular turf .

 

[hogarth]

They suck for you guys who "run and gun" as far as debris, rolling around on the ground and stuff.
The holsters don't cause ND's. But you know that.
Certainly those who practice drawing, can practice drawing the proper way getting their reps in and be just fine.

That being said, my experience has been that they are only good for a range holster. I don't think they conceal very well.

I never said the holsters cause NDs. But just like how often we see cops intend to activate WMLs instead activate their triggers, so I would say that the hardware "is a factor" in the ND. Training, of course, can mitigate most of this.

As far as rolling around goes, my thought is that, if I'm involved in a gun grab attempt (which is what started this conversation), there's a decent chance I'll end up rolling on the ground with someone.

"often?" hospitals would be kicking out covid patients to make room if that were the case. sure a couple of idiots with horrible trigger finger discipline shot themselves but i've seen nd's with 'regular' holsters also.

i'm mostly aiwb now but when open carrying at 3:00 or so, serpa is a great choice. of course for 2 & 3 gun i use a holster with a hood, that gun ain't coming out no matter what unless you want it to, but i don't want that kind of bulk when out and about around town.

We all have different definitions of "often". I'd say often enough that no instructor I'm aware of allows their use in class UNLESS the student uses said holster for their job (typically with no choice in the matter).

 

[Art3]

Agreed.

However it was the only option for me as both of my carry pistols have been discontinued and Serpa is the only one making them for mine.

I'd much rather prefer one of those newer twist-to-release holsters but alas, I will have to buy a new carry gun for that.

Sounds like a happy ending to me!

 

[DFresh64]

Urban Carry has a pretty decent "click" style OWB. It's pretty tight for my 1911.
Its leather and shaped with a perfect curve for a 3 o'clock position.

 

[swinokur]

Retention levels can also be based on location and time of day

I seldom go out at night.

I don’t frequent locations where the type of individuals who might do this are around

A simple leather pancake seems adequate for me anyway


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tower43]

Serpa holsters suck. They often lead to negligent discharges, are easily jammed by sand/grit/small stones that get behind the button (think: rolling on the ground with an adversary), and their mounting method is easy to just rip away.

Safariland is a much better solution here.

they only lead to NDs if you're an idiot

 

[Tower43]

MARSOC, USSOCCOM, FORCE RECON and conventional USMC Infantry units used serpa for quite a while without NDs. It may not be the best design but its not the worst.

I have one for my 1911.

I also have a safariland ALS for my M&P

I also have the aliengear paddle with the thumb release for OWB.

 

[swinokur]

Well at least Hogarth reads
Internet forums

I have had Serpas for years. Never shot my self


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hogarth]

MARSOC, USSOCCOM, FORCE RECON and conventional USMC Infantry units used serpa for quite a while without NDs. It may not be the best design but its not the worst.

I have one for my 1911.

I also have a safariland ALS for my M&P

I also have the aliengear paddle with the thumb release for OWB.

I always love how much people deride .gov lowest bid choices.....right up until the time that they happen to spend $ on the same things .gov does. Then suddenly .gov decisions provide legitimacy to their own choices.

 

[hogarth]

Well at least Hogarth reads
Internet forums

I have had Serpas for years. Never shot my self


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's only one of the potential issues with them. As I mentioned.

 

[smokey]

I dunno, I feel like the holster's job is to keep the gun in it if I fall down or otherwise jostle around abruptly. It's my job to keep other people from yanking it out of my holster. I like a good leather thumb-break holster at the 3:30 position if carrying OWB. They're just extremely comfortable and conceal fairly well under a jacket if need be. Things like serpas and the safariland OWB holsters just stick the handle way out away from the body and aren't as comfortable or concealable.

That said, I carry nearly exclusively IWB appendix now. It's also pretty comfortable, but it's much more concealable and easy to defend against anyone reaching for my gun.... especially with a TDI support-side.

 

[Frostadams]

On the (very rare occasion) that I would opt for open carry, I'm interested to see what everyone else is doing. Please post.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement as to what constitutes the various retention levels

To me:

Level 0 (some consider this level 1) = friction only

Level 0.5 = thumb strap (some may consider this level 1)

Level 1 (some consider this level 2) = Any mechanical retention method that clicks the weapon into place such as Serpa, ALS, twist-to-release, rock backwards to release, rotating hood, etc that are not readily apparent to someone who is attempting to grab your weapon from you.

Level 2 (some consider this level 3) = any combination of 2 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

Level 3 (some consider this level 4) = any combination of 3 of the the various level 1 retention mechanisms described above.

I personally feel that the holsters that make you twist or rock the gun are the most secure as it's not obvious to the criminal how to defeat the retention device as if there was an exposed lever, button, or thumb break snap.


Currently I have a pancake holster with a thumb break strap. However, I think thumb break snaps are too easy to defeat and are really only good for keeping the weapon secured when engaging in physical activities, not a gun grab.

I ordered a Serpa holster, which is better than my thumb break pancake holster but still has the exposed release button. Unfortunately most OWB holsters don't go past level 1 (as described above ) until you get an actual law enforcement duty holster, which I'm not going to do.

I like the Safariland ALS holster retention and used for several years in law enforcement. If you wanted an additional level they offer a small shroud that covers the ALS lever. I eventually wen to that, just to have the option when in large groups or people.

 

[swinokur]

One time I was wrestling around on the ground with a bad guy and a pebble got stuck in my Serpa and I couldn’t pull my gun out


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk