Safe on an upper floor?

[GNLaFrance]

I need a good safe for my guns and valuables, but I have no idea how to tell if it can be safely installed upstairs on the second floor. What questions do I need to ask about this?

 

[southern71]

PM Safecracker. He should be able to help you out.

 

[GNLaFrance]

PM Safecracker. He should be able to help you out.

Good idea. I'll PM him and direct him here. Maybe he can also help others with similar questions.

 

[DeadIDik]

Bad idea, heat rises and floors love to collapse during fires.

 

[GNLaFrance]

Bad idea, heat rises and floors love to collapse during fires.

I think, in the case of a fire that bad, a collapsing floor would not be a salient problem. If we're still in the house at that point, we've been dead for some time already.

 

[honda53s]

Bang is having nightmares right now. LOL

 

[Merlin]

Bad idea, heat rises and floors love to collapse during fires.

That's true and if you did have a fire you would want your safe in the basement because of how heat rises like you mentioned. But then on the flip side I think about how bad it is on the safe and guns everyday to be stored in a basement where it is very damp. Not to mention the trip down in the basement every time you want to get access to your guns.

Again your 100% right about the best place for the safe IF you did have a fire. But then think about how many people do not have safes at all, and if they were to get a safe, having it on the upper floor is 100% better then not having one at all.

I keep looking at the safes that are in the $2500 rang and most come with very nice looking pain jobs that if I had in my basement I would not get to see that much.

But at the end of the day your 100% right with the lowest level is the best place to have your safe if you did have that fire.

 

[Merlin]

Bad idea, heat rises and floors love to collapse during fires.

Before you talk to the safe people whoever you go to, take measurements of the doorways a safe would have to pass through on it's way to all of the location your considering. Also take pictures of any steps, doorways, floors, or hallways that safe will pass through and bring or email this info to the safe person your talking to. This will help them get a good idea on what would be involved.

 

[George]

Basements fill up with water during a fire, from the water the fire dept. uses. So the basement may not be a good place.

 

[Bang]

Another important thing to consider is the static load you are putting on the floor. I'm not a construction guy but if I remember correctly code is like 30lbs a square foot. Now if you have extra support under where you put it then you might be ok. But that much weight in one spot I will bet will cause cracks and sagging over time .

 

[HarCo2ANewb]

I would think a decent safe co. would be able to check out your floor and tell you if it was OK. Might even be able to at least point you in the direction of someone who could shore it up if needed. If I remember from some of your other posts, this sounds like a move for accessibility rather than just a random thought so basement is out. Either way, I wouldn't mind to see the same info, I am in a townhome and sleep 3 stories above my basement.

 

[Merlin]

Another important thing to consider is the static load you are putting on the floor. I'm not a construction guy but if I remember correctly code is like 30lbs a square foot. Now if you have extra support under where you put it then you might be ok. But that much weight in one spot I will bet will cause cracks and sagging over time .

Ya, I'm always thinking about that when looking at safes. In some ways it's a lose, lose for me because everywhere I would want to place a safe I'm not 100% sure the floor can handle it.

 

[Merlin]

Really the best thing you can do to play it safe is to keep all of your important papers at someone else like a friends or relatives home. Or any different location like a safe deposit box at the bank. As far as the guns in a fire. Well no one would want to loose anything. But if your home burned down you will have many more things to worry about other then did your guns make it.

 

[CronusTRD]

Depends on your house construction. If you are on an upper floor, you may need to place it over a beam, or against a support wall.

 

[fd0816]

I just thought I'd throw in a little something to this discussion. Putting a safe on any floor other then the basement floor can be hazardous to not only you and your family during a fire but also to the firefighters who's job it is to try to save your family and property. Most newer homes now a days are constructed with light weight building materials which in normal conditions are as strong if not stronger then older building materials. However, when exposed to heat they fail much more rapidly and burn at much higher BTU's then older construction so therefore that safe that can last "30 min in 1200 degrees F" won't last as long as they say.

 

[Merlin]

I just thought I'd throw in a little something to this discussion. Putting a safe on any floor other then the basement floor can be hazardous to not only you and your family during a fire but also to the firefighters who's job it is to try to save your family and property. Most newer homes now a days are constructed with light weight building materials which in normal conditions are as strong if not stronger then older building materials. However, when exposed to heat they fail much more rapidly and burn at much higher BTU's then older construction so therefore that safe that can last "30 min in 1200 degrees F" won't last as long as they say.

All good points.

 

[diesel-man]

I need a good safe for my guns and valuables, but I have no idea how to tell if it can be safely installed upstairs on the second floor. What questions do I need to ask about this?

There was a thread on here a couple a days ago and it showed a safe that had a low fire rating (30min @ 1200) and it was poor looking. (after the fire)

Here is a safe that is 70 minute...but it also weighs 1050 lbs. So a safe worth having, is not an upstairs safe. Unless you have sump pump issues...I would go with the basement. I think that it all depends on what you want the safe to do...deter little fingers...deter some neighbor kid breaking in...or deter a fairly experienced burgler.

http://www.costco.com/Bighorn-B7144EL-Heavy-duty-Safe.product.11670806.html


It also makes a difference if your house has solid wood floor joists or laminated wood beams (glued plywood w/2x2 top and bottom)

 

[msalvas]

I have a small safe for my primary handguns and jewelry in my bedroom closet and I am planning on a large safe to go in the garage for the rest of my handguns and my rifle. I know the garage gets cold and hot in winter and summer but I figure a humidifier should do the job. My basement just isn't big enough to fit a safe the size I want.

Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX using Tapatalk 2

 

[safecracker]

Now that I am more or less recovered from last night's butt hurt, I'll add my thought as requested by Frenchie....

My normal recommendation to people purchasing safes for use in the home is to put the safe in the basement. There are several reasons for this, including, but not necessarily limited to:

1) Concealability. Your basement is the least visited area of your home by contractors, delivery persons, etc. If a potential thief doesn't know you have a safe, it doesn't become a target. Secondly, burglars typically head straight for the bedroom upon entering a home because that is where people keep jewelry, guns, money, and prescriptions. They tend to avoid basements because they cannot see or hear what is happening outside, i.e., police or the homeowner arriving. They want to get in and out as quickly as possible. Put the safe in the basement next to the boiler, and cover it with a blanket or cardboard box, and PRESTO...nobody knows you have a safe, even if they happen to stumble into the basement.

2) Ease of delivery. When I hear the terms gunsafe, home, and stairs all in the same conversation, my cell phone connection suddenly goes bad and I drop the call. Humping 1,000 pounds of safe through a walkout door, or creeping it down some stairs is a hell of alot easier than try to push/drag it UP a flight of stairs. Gravity is our friend. Sometimes.

3) Heat rises. In the event of a fire, your safe and it's contents stand a better chance of survival if it is BELOW the heat source. Try this: fire up your BBQ grill. Get it good and hot. Now put your hand under the grill maybe 6 inches or so. Yeah it's warm. Now put your hand a foot or so over the open grill. Big difference; the heat is much more intense because heat rises.

4) Concrete floors. Concrete can handle heavy loads, while lightweight residential flooring is not designed to do so. Concrete is also a very effective insulator against heat - that's why it is used as fire insulation. Go back to your grill. Imagine your floor joists being the grate of your grill. Now imagine your safe as a rack of ribs on that grill. Get the picture? When your safe is sitting on the concrete floor of your basement, the heat of a fire cannot get underneath it to BBQ it. Even if it could, the concrete would capture the bulk of the heat and prevent it from reaching your safe and it's contents.

5) Room. Let's face it, generally speaking we have more spare room for a safe in our basement than we do in the bedroom closet. This means you can probably get a considerably bigger safe if you keep it in the basement. Not only that, with that extra room comes added space for maneuverability, meaning the possibility of damage to drywall, carpeting, flooring, wallpaper, etc. while moving the safe in or out is reduced considerably.

6) Bolt down. If your safe isn't of sufficient weight, it's not a bad idea to bolt it to the floor. Using wedge anchors on a concrete floor is quick, simple, and secure. On a wood floor, it's best to run bolts through the floor and secure them with steel plate, or large washers and nuts. However, with a drywall ceiling below, accessing the floor can be problematic. The alternative is running lag bolts into the the subflooring; this isn't very secure, but it's better than nothing.

7) Save the firemen. As stated above. Their job is tough enough without them having to worry about your entire gun collection landing on them while they try to save your house from the turkey you tried to deep fry in the kitchen.

OK, so now you still aren't convinced. Wifey is going to get pissy if she has to tiptoe down to the basement in her panties to retrieve her favorite Hope diamond broach as you prepare for a night out drinking champagne and hobnobbing with the rich and famous. Tell her to get over it. If you aren't man enough to, well, I guess we need to put the safe in the closet. <yes, dear>

1) Weight is the biggest consideration here. Getting the container up the stairs is the first part. Maneuvering the load over lightweight construction is the second. Finally, ensuring that the safe remains stable in it's final destination is paramount. I've had customers pay structural engineers and contractors to shore up flooring to accomodate extra weight. I've also refused to take loads up and over flooring and stairs that I felt were not safe. I don't like lawsuits or insurance claims any more than I like root canal surgery or IRS audits.

2) Also, keep in mind that once your safe is in place, it's more or less there to stay. So it's important to keep the size of any container in perspective when going this route. How many times have I heard "Wow I didn't know it would take up so much space." or "It didn't look that big in your warehouse." Think it through, particularly when dealing with gun safes, which tend to be slightly larger than the little Sentry you bought at Home Depot. You think wifey was pissed when she had to tiptoe into the basement? Take away 50% of her closet space and see if you get any tonight.

3) Remember also that if your house is burglarized, the safe in your bedroom WILL BE FOUND. See above.

Hope this info is useful.

 

[Mooseman]

Contrary to safecrackers advice, unless your house is rickity and ready to fall down, the floor should handle the weight of the safe. If you have a house fire that is bad enough that you have to worry about the safe falling through the floor, you have bigger concerns than your gun collection. Bang mentioned the number 30 pounds per square foot. If that was all the weight your floor could handle, you would fall through. A 250 pound man takes up less than one square foot when the are standing.