SB 1097 Likely rewritten to eliminate QHIC HQL Wear and Carry instructors

[4g64loser]

Only on the board of directors

I'd never rate a position like that.

I figure I should be OK with my Rhode Island Guido certified silk shirts.

 

[scottyfz6]

Just a question, is Otwell a retired state trooper in fact? I have talked too a few retired troopers, who have never heard of him, and don’t recognize him.

Someone I know looked him up in the msp book, he was a trooper in 1998 at least. Nothing on rank or position at the time

 

[Defense Initiative]

Someone I know looked him up in the msp book, he was a trooper in 1998 at least. Nothing on rank or position at the time

He claims to have worked as a Trooper for twelve and a half years.

 

[AbolishTheNFA]

At what point should trainers be held liable in civil court for the actions of their trainees? I’m just wondering if trainers get to a position where the advice becomes a legal liability? Are they presenting legal advice? If not, then what is the point of requiring this level of information? Couldn’t this information all be presented in a state approved webinar for free, then giving instructors more time to focus on practical skills? I would imagine that trainers would need additional liability insurance just in case.

 

[Mark75H]

South Carolina gives their class for free. MD will never give their subjects anything but a hard time. You are free to ask your delegate or senator to introduce legislation for a free MD webinar.

 

[Biggfoot44]

A quick search shows that ( pre Con Carry ) the typical mainstream price range for 8 hrs CWP class was $50 - $100 , frequently including fingerprints.

A 2018 pdf from SLED specified 50rds . Generous time limits , only 5 rds @ 12yd , and 5rd @ 15yd . Hits on full size silhouette- ish targets , including B-27 , Q, TQ-19 , and IPSC .

Multiple secondary sources all specify 30rds , from 3, 5 , and 7yds , so maybe the 2018 guidance had been supersceeded .

. A quirk was that for persons not hold a DL ,, had to pass a vision test, , corrected to 20/ 40 ..




Yes , Con Carry is a big thing in principle. And from our viewpoint , the apparent lack of Residency requirement is huge .

. But as a practical thing , the Restrictions were ( and still are ) the bigger hindrance than the cheap , easy , and quick CWP was . ( For Residents )

Since 2021 , S.C. no longer charged an application fee .

 

[BurkeM]

At what point should trainers be held liable in civil court for the actions of their trainees?

Almost Never- unless the trainer promotes or suggests reckless or blatantly unlawful conduct.

I’m just wondering if trainers get to a position where the advice becomes a legal liability?

Most do not. Their primary liability exists during training, as they are responsible for supervising SAFETY at all times.

Are they presenting legal advice?

Ask a lawyer, get 3 different answers.

If not, then what is the point of requiring this level of information?

The MGA said so.

Couldn’t this information all be presented in a state approved webinar for free,

The MGA and the Attorney General could have done that- they didn't. (And it wouldn't be free)

then giving instructors more time to focus on practical skills?

That's not what the MGA requires by law. NO 'practical skills' are required beyond hitting a massive target 70% of the time.

I would imagine that trainers would need additional liability insurance just in case.

LOCKTON and the NRA / USCCA provide that.

 

[Shooterguy22]

Carter is an idiot- but we already knew that. Otwell wasn't 'wrong' i providing training beyond the statute for HIS paying customers, but he was dead wrong pushing an absurd requirement on 400,000 'guards' who won't ever handle a handgun.

Millions of dollars will be wasted in the next two years on this 12 hr "Guard training" for UNARMED security workers. Companies across the state will lay-off thousands of people rather than comply with extra 'licensing' fees.

Unintended consequences- and I don't recall seeing a lesson plan from MSP Licensing- yet.

I'm late to the party. But, my understanding is Otwell is not only partner/owner of ATFT but he also is a owner or partner in a security company.

I took a class with with them and he mentioned wanting the requirements to be raised and how other trainers in the area shouldn't be training people with just a NRA cert. It didn't really sit well with me. Supply and demand, less trainers means classes must cost more.

 

[Bertfish]

Fortunately this nonsense all died before sine die

 

[Jake4U]

Here in SC we just became a constitutional carry state. Yea me. If you will want a CCW you can attend the 6 hour class that includes a range qualification. It was my understanding SC pretty much laid out the whole 6 hours and certified instructors teach it and then administer a quiz at the end. The classroom material, if I remember, was entirely on state law. I thought that was pretty good as it's different than MD. The range bit was like MD's, unless you were blind it was pretty easy to pass.

 

[Shooterguy22]

Fortunately this nonsense all died before sine die

Agreed, but sadly it's now on their radar for future use.

 

[Mark75H]

I'm late to the party. But, my understanding is Otwell is not only partner/owner of ATFT but he also is a owner or partner in a security company.

I took a class with with them and he mentioned wanting the requirements to be raised and how other trainers in the area shouldn't be training people with just a NRA cert. It didn't really sit well with me. Supply and demand, less trainers means classes must cost more.

He is both right and wrong at the same time. Post-Bruen there are four times as many instructors as there were pre-Bruen.
Instructors who have only taken the minimum training to acquire their certification are doing their students a disservice; but there should be no such general public training requirement whatsoever.

In my opinion, which is shared by many long time instructors, the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert teaches less than half of what a concealed carry instructor should learn (even if it were not an evil state required class). The good instructors know this, and most of them have been teaching since long before Bruen.

It’s a good thing it DFM, but people aren’t really getting the quality they think they are with 3 out of every 4 instructors being newbies who don’t know what they don’t know.

 

[Bertfish]

Agreed, but sadly it's now on their radar for future use.

Eh stuff like this is always on the radar as long as you have people who feel differently than others about these topics.

 

[Shooterguy22]

He is both right and wrong at the same time. Post-Bruen there are four times as many instructors as there were pre-Bruen.
Instructors who have only taken the minimum training to acquire their certification are doing their students a disservice; but there should be no such general public training requirement whatsoever.

In my opinion, which is shared by many long time instructors, the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor cert teaches less than half of what a concealed carry instructor should learn (even if it were not an evil state required class). The good instructors know this, and most of them have been teaching since long before Bruen.

It’s a good thing it DFM, but people aren’t really getting the quality they think they are with 3 out of every 4 instructors being newbies who don’t know what they don’t know.

I'm sure there are many instructors out there with the bare minimum and while they can probably go over the required material when students start asking questions about how to apply things it could get murky. I also imagine there are a lot of students that don't care they just want to check the state required box and move on.

The class I was in at ATFT had around 50 students, most were pretty well checked out before the end of the first day. 16 hours basically all in a classroom is a lot for most people. The only time spent on a range shooting a gun is the required qualification to pass.

 

[miles71]

Many reasons here to do some investigating and talking to the instructor before taking a course. Ask the questions.

TD

 

[Shooterguy22]

Many reasons here to do some investigating and talking to the instructor before taking a course. Ask the questions.

TD

For sure, this side of the bay there aren't a ton of options and they gotta be the biggest. ATFT talks big about fighting Annapolis for our rights and all that jazz. I guess it's just disappointing to see this, and maybe a bit telling.

 

[Mark75H]

ATFT certainly is the biggest and loudest in the Salisbury area, but it seems like there
are about two dozen instructors in Wicomico and Worcester. The market is more than saturated down there. They are probably feeling a lot of pressure from those other guys.

Including myself, there are three active instructors in my part of the Shore where less than 600 permits have been issued over the past couple of years. By my estimates, I trained more than half of them.

 

[Shooterguy22]

I didn't realize there were so many around here TBH. I'd imagine something like this would really hurt those smaller guys while the bigger ones can absorb it.

No different really then the stuff Amazon and other big corporations do getting in bed with government to regulate their own industry. Long term it helps them because it stifles competition and once the little guys are gone you have free reign.

 

[Garet Jax]

At what point should trainers be held liable in civil court for the actions of their trainees? I’m just wondering if trainers get to a position where the advice becomes a legal liability? Are they presenting legal advice? If not, then what is the point of requiring this level of information? Couldn’t this information all be presented in a state approved webinar for free, then giving instructors more time to focus on practical skills? I would imagine that trainers would need additional liability insurance just in case.

So English as a second language teachers should be held liable if one of their students yells "Fire" in a theatre?
Driving instructors should be liable if a student of theirs kills someone while driving?

There should be no point at which an instructor should be held liable in civil court.

 

[BurkeM]

So English as a second language teachers should be held liable if one of their students yells "Fire" in a theatre?
Driving instructors should be liable if a student of theirs kills someone while driving?

There should be no point at which an instructor should be held liable in civil court.

Precisely.

Even Federal Agents with a 4 year degree in "Criminal Justice" and 6 months at the Federal Law Enforcement Academy aren't 'qualified' to teach the 16 hr MD class. Or a 20 year Marine MP with 18 deployments.

Today, everyone must follow the MSP lesson plan, even with 3 Massad F. Ayoob courses and 10 years exp at a Police Academy as an instructor.