Transporting and AR Pistol/'firearm'

[cokebuck]

It sure is. But you've brought to light something that wasn't clear before.
I've always heard you can not put a VFG on a pistol. Period. But now you have document that says you can if it's OAL is 26" or greater. Learning is fun.

 

[Sticky]

It sure is. But you've brought to light something that wasn't clear before.
I've always heard you can not put a VFG on a pistol. Period. But now you have document that says you can if it's OAL is 26" or greater. Learning is fun.

I have seen this response before from the ATF, but it was years ago, so I wrote and asked them just to satisfy my curiosity. It seems there are many influencing regs that affect many things...

 

[Biggfoot44]

( Under NFA) if the overall length us more than 26in, it is NOT a pistol. If the ( item that shoots) also is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is neither a rifle nor shotgun. It is simply "firearm". The fellow member of this catagory that is semi-common is the factory mfg Pistol Grip Only ( item that shoots) that resembles a shotgun.

Clear as mud yet ? It gets even better .

If the (item that shoots) has previously been a rifle or shotgun , then the respective bbl length of 16 or 18 inches must be adheared to, or it becomes SBR or SBS. If the over 26 inch OAL ( item that shoots) was made from a virgin reciever ( without ever having been a rifle or shotgun at any time) , no federal restriction on bbl length as long as over 26inches.


And since it came up in this thread a cpl times -

An actual pistol ( under 26 inch) can not have a foreward pistol grip. If it did it would become an Any Other Weapon ( AOW). Under some circumstances, some AOW's require a $5 tax stamp instead of $200.

Yes, it is confusing, two items of indentical configuration would be considered different things depending on its build history.


The linked section above regarding less than 16in bbls and transport is a Maryland thing. In other jurisdictions, consult the respective fine print of thier laws.

 

[dblas]

Like correctly stated above:

Without stock and VFG and less than 16" barrel is a pistol. Period.
Put a stock on becomes SBR. Illegal without papers. Period.
Put a VFG on becomes AOW. Illegal without papers. Period.

If your "pistol" has a barrel 16" or greater. It ain't no pistol. It's a rifle, maybe a carbine.
The fact that it's 26" or greater does not define whether or not it's a pistol or rifle. Nor does it define it as an SBR or not.
26" OAL is ATF minimum length requirement for an SBR.
Here in Maryland our SBR have an additional requirement to be at least 29"

FTFY

 

[dblas]

ATF Federal Law

A VFG can not be attached to any pistol. Any pistol.

If you do it becomes and AOW ($5 stamp), not an SBR ($200 stamp)

 

[sinobeat]

( Under NFA) if the overall length us more than 26in, it is NOT a pistol. If the ( item that shoots) also is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is neither a rifle nor shotgun. It is simply "firearm". The fellow member of this catagory that is semi-common is the factory mfg Pistol Grip Only ( item that shoots) that resembles a shotgun.

Clear as mud yet ? It gets even better .

If the (item that shoots) has previously been a rifle or shotgun , then the respective bbl length of 16 or 18 inches must be adheared to, or it becomes SBR or SBS. If the over 26 inch OAL ( item that shoots) was made from a virgin reciever ( without ever having been a rifle or shotgun at any time) , no federal restriction on bbl length as long as over 26inches.


And since it came up in this thread a cpl times -

An actual pistol ( under 26 inch) can not have a foreward pistol grip. If it did it would become an Any Other Weapon ( AOW). Under some circumstances, some AOW's require a $5 tax stamp instead of $200.

Yes, it is confusing, two items of indentical configuration would be considered different things depending on its build history.


The linked section above regarding less than 16in bbls and transport is a Maryland thing. In other jurisdictions, consult the respective fine print of thier laws.

^This assessment is the correct one. Here is the ATF letter that backs this up. Franklin Armory sells a AR-style pistol with a VFG that does not require NFA registration as an AOW because it exceeds 26" OAL. The language is towards the end of the letter. Consequently, that's not a rifle stock on the Franklin gun either.

Important things to remember:

1) The firearm must have never been registered or configured as a rifle (no buttstock). Registration as either a pistol (handgun) or other is ok.
2) OAL must exceed 26", measured without a muzzle device unless it's pinned and welded per ATF guidelines.
3) Barrel length does not matter because it's not a rifle or shotgun. The 29" OAL Maryland law does not apply, because its not a rifle.
4) Don't ever carry the gun concealed on your person. This would change the classification to an AOW. (Not that you would want to stuff it down your pants.)

The reason that the ATF uses the 26" OAL as the guideline is because a pistol as defined by law has 2 characteristics. 1) It's designed to be fired by one hand and 2) It's concealable. The 26" OAL guideline addresses the second point as the determining factor one whether or not the firearm is legally considered concealable. VFG's violate the first point because attaching a VFG to a pistol makes it so that it is designed to be fired with 2 hands which is why its classification is changed to AOW.

Although, if you read the ATF letter on redesigning it's technically illegal to fire a handgun with two hands period. I wrote a blog post about this.

 

[Sticky]

If you do it becomes and AOW ($5 stamp), not an SBR ($200 stamp)

Not exactly correct... see sino's post after yours (and Bigfoot's), his assessment is correct and it was verified to me in writing by the ATF..

 

[Sticky]

( Under NFA) if the overall length us more than 26in, it is NOT a pistol. If the ( item that shoots) also is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, it is neither a rifle nor shotgun. It is simply "firearm". The fellow member of this catagory that is semi-common is the factory mfg Pistol Grip Only ( item that shoots) that resembles a shotgun.

I believe, after the response I got from the NFA, that the addition of the VFG to a pistol over 26" is what changes it's classification to a 'firearm'.. without the VFG it is still considered a pistol by the NFA..

 

[Biggfoot44]

The magic number of "26 inches" was arbitrary by Congress in 1934. The legislative history if the NFA could be a book by itself, but concievable could have been several inches either side.


The overly condensed version - AOW originally built as AOW, $5 Stamp. Built from another pre-existing firearm, $200 Stamp. Said building either by individual or 007/SOT .

 

[Sticky]

Yes, that and the GCA of 1968 were cited in several references that they included in their response to me. I only posted the second page with their 'conclusion', but the first page of the reply included these references as well for the definitions of firearm, handgun, pistol, rifle and AOW.

 

[rainman73guns]

I read that if you put an AFG (angle forearm grip) to a pistol ar , it stays classified as a pistol

 

[sinobeat]

I read that if you put an AFG (angle forearm grip) to a pistol ar , it stays classified as a pistol

Yes, it's legal to attach an AFG to a pistol without changing the classification. See this ATF letter.