Want to Learn Long Distance Shooting

[lmorrison17]

There are a lot of different types of "long range" shooting.
But typically you need to belong to a club or shoot matches.
It depends on what your interest is. I break it up for my own personal use.
Precision riflery= benchrest, F-class, 600 and 1000yd
Marksmanship= High power or CMP matches
and the sniper or tactical type matches that I think is a cross between the two.

I have a lot of experience with 600yd BR and F-class.
There are 3 ranges that I consider within my driving distance.
Bridgeville
http://bville-rifle-pistol.org/

They have rifle ranges from 100-1000yd (1000 just opened up and I have not shot it yet)
They offer Benchrest, High Power, F-Class, Cowboy action and varios pistol shoots that I know nothing about. This is the range I am most familiar with.

New Holland
http://www.nhrpc.org/
They have High power/F-class, tactical and pistol shoots and some small bore I think. Check out their "Programs" link.

Cumberland Riflemen in Jersey.
http://www.cumberlandriflemen.com/index.php
They have HP/F-class and a bunch of other stuff too, check out their page.

Like I said most of my experience is BR and F-class But I have recently taken an interest in marksmanship type shooting.

If marksmanship has your interest I think the very first thing you ought to do is look into the Appleseed shoots. I have shot one and have intentions to do more but times are tough at the moment.

If I were looking to join a club to have a place to shoot and practice shooting long I'd join Bridgevilles club.

Id be happy to share anything I know and I live fairly close in North East.
If you want to PM me we can talk.

 

[fwpart]

All good advice and I appreciate the insight and recommendations. I shot well already both iron sights ( although my eyes are failing me) and scoped. I have several .22LR and shoot them regularly. 100 yards with iron sights is not difficult and I have excellent groupimhh and unable to find a place to shoot 200+yards. I guess idea is to be able to shoot 600 yards, then I'd love to try longer but dont want to bite off more than I can chew. I appreciate everyone's insight and a welcoming IM!


Fletcher

 

[huesmann]

Will a .22LR even go 600 yards?

 

[pcfixer]

Will a .22LR even go 600 yards?

Yep, If ya know the ballastics, elevation and windage...600 + yard shots are possible

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=f630255c

 

[El_flasko]

I just went to Ed Shell's long range class in VA thru his IP Central Virginia Tactical. I can not possibly recommend his three day class any higher. He is a consummate professional, he's forgotten more about long range shooting than ill ever know, and he is a gentleman on and off MDS. Check out his IP section and pm me if you like. I learned a ton and was banging steel at 1k plus!!

 

[huesmann]

Yep, If ya know the ballastics, elevation and windage...600 + yard shots are possible

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=f630255c

Holy guacamole, I can't imagine compensating for a 60' drop at 600 yd.

 

[Pinecone]

When you look at the mils, it isn't that bad.

11.4 mils for a 175 gr Sierra MatchKing at 2650 fps muzzle velocity.

I am looking at doing the Bang Steel class, down near Roanoke.

 

[huesmann]

You ain't getting a 175 gr bullet in .22LR!

 

[mark1070]

You ain't getting a 175 gr bullet in .22LR!

The projectile would be 6" long and muzzle velocity would drop to about 150 fps...

 

[Pinecone]

I am looking at doing the Bang Steel class, down near Roanoke.

My wife and I did do the Bang Steel course in SW VA. Very good time, low key, but lots of good info. And great shooting.

Review here - http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=128601

 

[Minuteman]

If any of you drive up to Cabelas in Hamburg, PA then you may be willing to drive a little further for a great range...
The PA State Game Land in Nesquehoning, PA has a range w/ 100, 200, & 300 yard stations. All you need to shoot is a valid hunting license!
My wife's parents live up there & I'm there on Saturday or Sunday every other month... Never very crowded either.

I can't believe I'm giving up my secret spot!

To begin with, great initiative to seek out a coach to teach you in person. In addition, I'd start educating yourself at the same time.

Here's some thoughts off the top of my head.

1) Join the Maryland Rifle Club and start learning service rifle with iron sites. Even if you don't compete and just show up occasionally for coaching, this will teach you sound fundamentals that will translate into all types of shooting. Take one of their beginner clinics (even if you have some experience with firearms), they are quite good and they have excellent coaches. My bet is that you'll surprised at what you don't know if you swallow your pride a bit. I think they even have some loaner AR's for new members to use if you don't have a match AR.

http://www.mdrifleclub.org/membership/

2) At the risk of being chastised for promoting another site, go to:

http://forum.snipershide.com/?ubb=cfrm

This is probably the premier site for long range shooting, and some of the best long range shooters (competitive and operational) around today are laying pearls of wisdom down for us swine to pick up. They have an online training series that costs $10 a month, and is actually quite good. The small fee will also get you access to a locked thread where you can post videos and get some feedback.

Still, there is only so much you can learn from watching videos.

3) Buy a .22LR to use for training. Work on the fundamentals as much as you can. Savage makes a very accurate and inexpensive rifle (Savage Mk II). Work on shooting out to past 100 yds with it. It will teach you to read the wind, and turret manipulation. Shooting a .22LR accurately out to 200yds is a pretty good facsimile for shooting a .308 to 1000 yds.

4) Video yourself shooting (or have someone do it for you). Just like in golf, you think your body is doing something when it actually can be doing something quite different.

My wife and I did do the Bang Steel course in SW VA. Very good time, low key, but lots of good info. And great shooting.

Review here - http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=128601

These posts, plus the recommendation to do an Appleseed event are probably the best advice anywhere on learning long range rifle. This is my greatest weakness in shooting sports. Most Army shooting I did was iron sights 300m and closer. Someday I'd love to be able to easily put .308 between 400-1000m.

Thanks.

 

[E.Shell]

Thank all of you for your votes of confidence!! I have been so busy the last few months, I've been frantic and my forum presence has drwindled here and everywhere else. I would have suggested Central Virginia Tactical.

My wife and I did do the Bang Steel course in SW VA. Very good time, low key, but lots of good info. And great shooting.

Review here - http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=128601

Dan Newberry runs BangSteel, although I don't know which instructor conducted your class. I've known Dan for 10 years or more and he is a great guy and extremely knowledgeable in both shooting and handloading.

Whether you come to Central Virginia Tactical or go to one of the other very good schools, I would very strongly recommend attending BEFORE you teach yourself a lot of shooting habits.

I would also encourage shooters to attend a class, any class, before they absorb too much misinformation from the various forums, friends and relatives. Over at Sniper's Hide, for example, you will find excellent posts with good information, and you will also posts stating isolated personal experiences, theory and legend as universal fact, which it isn't always.

I see people who would like to attend the class as prepared as they can possibly be, to include trying to learn much of the material and/or skills ahead of time.

This would be fine, except that in doing this, you take a chance of ingraining habits that may seem productive at close range (inside 500 yards or so) and/or with larger targets, but will work against you as ranges increase and targets get smaller. If you attend a precision marksmanship class, you will be able to start and practice from a solid foundation, and all of your hard work will take you in the right direction.

The easiest students to teach are those without a lot of preconceived notions and/or bad habits. This might be obvious, but perhaps it isn't. Retired guys who shot all their life can be most challenging, in persuading them to let go of bad habits that put a ceiling on their performance levels.

An accurate .22 rimfire is an excellent training tool. We shoot out to about 400 yards with sub-sonic/target grade ammunition and it's both a lot of fun and very educational. Wind can indeed be brutal, which is the educational part.

The singular problem with trying to use a .22 to train up for long range precision marksmanship is recoil reaction. Rifles are dynamic, in that recoil will displace a mechanical zero by varying amounts based on the way the rifle is handled. More recoil means more reaction, which means more displacement.

One can get away with a LOT of very bad habits while using a .22, simply because the rifle's recoil is not enough to illustrate the errors. As we move up into more appropriate calibers for long range, recoil increases and begins to show us things were are doing wrong.

Given identical rifles of any design, with identical precision potential, in .223, .308 and .300 WinMag, the .223 will be easiest to shoot well.

This is because it reacts far less and is easier to control under recoil, even if you are not 'sensitive' to recoil. It has nothing to do with flinching, it has to do with the rifle assuming a will of it's own during the recoil impulse and the control techniques necessary to counter this are not as critical.

A bit of stray stock pressure here, a lack of stock pressure there, not enough support someplace else, etc., is all forgiven when the rifle barely moves under recoil. A .22 or even a .223 will not make glaring examples of your mishandling. When you move to a .308, these things suddenly show up as errant bullets and 'I don't know what happened, I was right on the bullseye' is often heard on the line.

Understand what is really happening and what you are doing to promote/allow this, add a bit more proper control, and now your .308 groups are as consistent as your .223 groups. Same thing applies when we go to a .300 WinMag or other caliber providing more recoil reaction, and errors that did not show with the .308 will suddenly toss your .300 WinMag bullets out of the group.

Otherwise, and once solid shooting habits are developed, a .22 becomes an excellent trainer.

 

[coopermania]

There has been some great advice on this thread already, But I would suggest before you go and start spending lots of cash shooting with the great instructors listed already.
I would suggest that you and if any of you kids are old enough to go and spend maybe 60 bucks and shoot a weekend APPLESEED.ORG event and learn all the basics from scratch. It will start with the basics of shooting along with wind / sights / range estimating and so on. They are always local and fun. Some of them are shot out to 300 yards.
Another way is to go to a high power clinic, that is time well spent sir. If your eyes are no good, Go get glasses. Lol. After you get all the basics down pat, Then go spend the bucks with the instructors.

 

[Pinecone]

Dan Newberry runs BangSteel, although I don't know which instructor conducted your class. I've known Dan for 10 years or more and he is a great guy and extremely knowledgeable in both shooting and handloading.

We spent two days with Dan.

Then we went back and spent a day just shooting, while Dan was teaching a class, so Palmer spent some time watching over us and coaching.

I would like to and plan on doing a Central VA Tactical course also. I believe you learn from them all. Mostly good stuff, but sometimes it may even be learning what does not work for you or how not to do things.

 

[Pinecone]

The easiest students to teach are those without a lot of preconceived notions and/or bad habits. This might be obvious, but perhaps it isn't. Retired guys who shot all their life can be most challenging, in persuading them to let go of bad habits that put a ceiling on their performance levels.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^

When I was teaching a lot of sporting clays and now when I teach high performance driving, I prefer women as students.

1) They look better.

2) They LISTEN to the instructor and do not assume that they know everything. Men tend to think as a red blooded American MALE, they know how to shoot and to drive. At least when I taught flying, very few students thought they knew how to do that.

 

[Mark75H]

Rifles are dynamic, in that recoil will displace a mechanical zero by varying amounts based on the way the rifle is handled.

Whenever I say this, I always get called out as the idiot of the thread, it can't possibly be so. Most shooters seem to think the rifle can't possibly move off zero before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Thanks Ed!

 

[E.Shell]

Whenever I say this, I always get called out as the idiot of the thread, it can't possibly be so. Most shooters seem to think the rifle can't possibly move off zero before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Thanks Ed!

You can prove to yourself/them that recoil management alters vertical displacement by varying buttplate pressure from a solid position.

One of the first cures for vertical stringing is getting consistent shoulder pressure, which provides consistent recoil control, which stabilizes vertical impact.

 

[Major03]

Wouldn't say it alters mechanical zero as much as the shooter's fundamentals will either minimize or amplify the perceived and real differences between point of aim vs point of impact.

Sort of an important distinction...because it's a very easy trap for shooter's to start blaming everything but themselves for a shanked shot. It was the wind (I've even heard this excuse at 100YDs and in for centerfire), it was the zero shifting, it was....anything but me.

Once zero'd, the bullet is going to go where the rifle is pointed (unless we're talking about failed scopes, improper bedding, or other mechanical deficiencies).

When the round doesn't go where it was pointed...it's because the shooter did something to alter where it was pointed.

But other than that I agree, how well one masters the things like trigger control, recoil management, breathing, bone support, natural point of aim...the fundamentals, all these can greatly alter the point of impact from the point of aim.