What's "legal" in court for home defense

[ackackadak]

I was at my local indoor range today and found myself next to a couple of young guys with tricked out shotguns; folding stocks, laser sights, etc. I was always under the impression that the courts don't look to kindly on something this tricked out for home defense. They may be technically legal but not too acceptable if one finds themselves defending their use. I took the pistol grip off of my Maverick 88 home defense just for this reason. Anyone have an answer?

 

[novus collectus]

I was at my local indoor range today and found myself next to a couple of young guys with tricked out shotguns; folding stocks, laser sights, etc. I was always under the impression that the courts don't look to kindly on something this tricked out for home defense. They may be technically legal but not too acceptable if one finds themselves defending their use. I took the pistol grip off of my Maverick 88 home defense just for this reason. Anyone have an answer?

A prosecutor may try to use the aspect that it was "tactical" to try and sway a jury with rhetoric, but I doubt there is any precedence that it increases either the sentence or the charge in any way.
Basically if the shooting in the home was questionable in the first place enough for the district attorney to prosecute beyond a preliminary hearing, then it being a "tactical" shotgun is the least of the worries.
Personally, I would not worry about the pistol grip being on it. A gun is a gun if it is used for self defense.

 

[Redneck]

My CX4 Storm is "tricked out" if you would, bc of my preference and what I like. It is my home defense weapon for many reasons, its compact, semi-auto, I put the light/laser on it bc more than likely if my home gets broken into when im there its going to happen at night. The flashlight is quicker than getting up to hit the switch on the wall, it is blinding which could stop the intruder alone, and the laser helps make it easier to aim and the person will know where your aiming. I would encourage a home defense weapon to be comfortable and what you feel will be the best for you and your family if the time ever comes. If it looks cool thats just a bonus

 

[ChannelCat]

My CX4 Storm is "tricked out" if you would, bc of my preference and what I like. It is my home defense weapon for many reasons, its compact, semi-auto, I put the light/laser on it bc more than likely if my home gets broken into when im there its going to happen at night. The flashlight is quicker than getting up to hit the switch on the wall, it is blinding which could stop the intruder alone, and the laser helps make it easier to aim and the person will know where your aiming. I would encourage a home defense weapon to be comfortable and what you feel will be the best for you and your family if the time ever comes. If it looks cool thats just a bonus

Dittos for my Remmington 870 pump: Lasermax police tactical light/laser, 18" barrel, and extended magazine. This shotgun is my home defense weapon, and is at easy reach. My remaining firearms reside in my safe and are, essentially, toys. My 870 is a tool, a tool that I pray to God that I'll never use. It is kind of cool to check out and to look at though. I've been thinking about adding a laser to my CX4 storm, a very sweet weapon without the added hardware.

 

[SamW]

I would use nothing that is changed much from the factory and I wouldn't use reloaded ammo. It would just be used against you.

 

[ackackadak]

That's been my basic belief all along. I think I read in a magazine somewhere (no flames, please) that modifications indicated the user was more willing to harm someone than not. Perhaps it was in a civil context but when you read "self defense" stories written up in reputable magazines there is always mention made of lawsuits no matter whether it was a lawful shooting or not. I think I even read "tactical ammo" was not recommended.

 

[smores]

Oh man, then you guys don't want to see what I have on my gun right now :X ..... getting pics....

I just FINALLY got it the way I want yesterday!

 

[ackackadak]

Post your pics! I have an 88 and I was looking at that stock. What else have you done?

 

[pauln]

I took Mas Ayoob's LFI class in which he covers the liabilities of gun modifications when used in a defensive shooting scenario. Altered safeties, lightened triggers and handloaded ammo is not defensible in court. Modifications to grips, sights to increase accuracy is defensible. But you don't want the weapon to look too scary when it's held up in front of a jury.

 

[VNVGUNNER]

 

[pauln]

If they held that up in court, the sheeple in the jury would crap their pants.

 

[ChannelCat]

View attachment 202

Don't tell me, let me guess: You found this on Michael "Cut & Paste" Moore's website as a "documentary" of that we, as a "civilized society", should be banning.

 

[DD214]

This would win the hearts of the jury every time....
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[navycrna]

God I love this site

 

[novus collectus]

I took Mas Ayoob's LFI class in which he covers the liabilities of gun modifications when used in a defensive shooting scenario. Altered safeties, lightened triggers and handloaded ammo is not defensible in court. Modifications to grips, sights to increase accuracy is defensible. But you don't want the weapon to look too scary when it's held up in front of a jury.

I was wondering how long it would take before Ayoob's name came up. I have read this debate argued to death on TFL and THR boards and the one biggest thing people used to dismiss Ayoob's assertions was that there was a lack of a case or an example to cite.
Not saying that Ayoob isn't citing actual cases, but the challenge to other posters to find one was never met that I saw.
Also, Ayoob does not live in MD with MD law and court precedence. What might apply in Massachusetts or Texas for instance, will probably not apply here (except for issues involving the US Constitution).

The factor of handloading ammo, or using "more deadly" ammo, or "tactical" modifications would apply to a viscous murder or even a negligent homicide case if the safety was altered and that was the excuse used for accidentally shooting, but for legitimate self defense I cannot envision it being an issue whatsoever.
Sure, the jury may be swayed a little more if the the shooting was questionable enough to go to court and the prosecutor held up the scary looking shotgun, but like I also said before, if it gets that far the scary looking shotgun is the least of the worries IMO. Almost any gun will look scary and "designed to kill" to the general public and most juries.

 

[SamW]

This just keeps getting better.

 

[ackackadak]

I guess my question is regarding CIVIL liability and not legal liability. I'm assumming some legal cases are deemed justifiable but then end up in civil court afterward. This is what my question stems from. Let's assume it is a legal kill from here forward... is that scary looking weapon going to cost me money as opposed to my mom and pop shotgun that sits in a lot of closets?

 

[RnRFreak]

View attachment 202

Oh Yeah?

 

[RobMoore]

View attachment 202

Yearbook picture?


Back on topic: Any gun is lethal forcein the court's eyes, so its the situation that matters, not how tricked out the firearm is. Unlike shooting game, the state of Maryland doesn't madate that you shoot intruders with a minimum caliber to ensure a quick death. Use whatever you want.

My opinion on pistol gripped shotguns is that they are less easy to manipulate in tight spaces.

 

[smores]

Post your pics! I have an 88 and I was looking at that stock. What else have you done?

I'm trying to find my camera, to take better pics (of all sorts of crap) but I have NO CLUE where it is. So for now my camera phone will have to suffice:

I just put my AK there as a size comparison. I have the SpecOps stock, which I like a lot because the pistol grip is basically the same shape as a Glock grip, but has a different texture. I've only had it at the range once, but it did soak up a lot of recoil. I fired 25 Remington 1oz. slugs and didn't feel anything until later in the day. Usually I'm sore by the 15th round or so with slugs

I also threw on an 18.5" barrel, because 28" is just ridiculous for HD. A heat shield, because when the zombies attack that tube is going to be pretty warm and I wouldn't want to touch it directly...

The most recent addition is the TacStar sidesaddle. This is a pretty neat thing. I used to have one of the standard "butt cuffs" when I had the full stock on there, but this one holds 6 shells, and they're right up against the receiver so you can reload quickly, with the weapon aimed or at the ready or whatever.

The only downside to the stock is that it makes the action release hard to reach. With a full stock, I could just reach my middle finger behind the trigger guard to hit it, but now I have to hold the gun at a sort of inverted "port arms" position so my thumb can reach it. It's easy to hit if you have it at low ready though.