Indiana Jones
Wolverine
Nobody cares how it looks when you are dead because it didn't stop the bad guy who has a high probability of being under the influence of drugs.
Shells for HD. What should I use?
- Thread starter Scarab
- Start date
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Nobody cares how it looks when you are dead because it didn't stop the bad guy who has a high probability of being under the influence of drugs.
Fishguy
Ultimate Member
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns.htm
Here is a good site to help you out.
Reader's Digest points:
-FBI recommends 12" ballistic gel penetration to consider a defensive round minimally effective.
-#8 birdshot from 2 3/4" 12g shell at 10ft. ...about 4" gel penetration. 1/3 of what the FBI recommends.
-#8 birdshot from 2 3/4" shell at 10ft with 4 layers of clothing and simulated human bone in front of gel block....7/8" penetration.
Birdshot is for birds. Buckshot or slugs are for bad guys.
Be more concerned with where your safe firing lanes are in your specific hd scenario. Practice those before you need to use them then you will mitigate overpenetration concerns.
Sent from my C811 4G using Tapatalk 2
alucard0822
For great Justice
Used to favor 00 buck, basically a pre-fragmented projectile that penetrates deep with multiple wound channels and moderate recoil. Federal seem to pattern the tightest, which I prefer over a loose pattern for defense. On paper at least buck behaving more like a 485gr projectile that fragments into 9 pieces in a small area is superior to 9 individual 54gr .32cal pellets spread out. I have replaced my buck loads with managed recoil slugs, a 1oz around 1200-1300FPS. IMO buck doesn't scatter enough to turn a miss into a hit at home defense distances, but as a light/fast projectile they are more prone to deflection from cover, and penetration is reduced through barriers more than heavier projectiles. Where limiting "over" penetration is one thing that seems favorable to buck shot, in a few studies it seems to increase the risk of an errant pellet or the wad deflecting at a relatively high angle, and endangering bystanders.
Managed recoil slugs deflect less, penetrate better, are capable of damaging the same or greater volume of tissue(admittedly in a smaller radius), are capable of a very large shock/stretch cavity, and seem more likely to punch through vitals and bone instead of deflecting off of it. Better performance through barriers, better control, and in the off chance ranges exceed those of a small house, they are far better at longer ranges. Slug gel tests also show they penetrate less than you might expect, with most 1oz managed recoil slugs meeting the 12"-18" penetration range through various barriers in the FBI protocol, they just do a lot of damage in that 12-18". I tried PDX1 and liked them except for the 3 00 pellets loaded with the slug, would be better with slug only, although all 4 projectiles group pretty tight. Standard full power foster slugs tend to break apart, and recoil is too much for shooting fast. The best I have found are Brenneke THD slugs, light recoil, accurate, the wad stays attatched to the slug, and the slug is far tougher with superior barrier penetration compared to thin hollow base foster slugs. They are stabilized by drag from the attached wad instead of a thin lead skirt from a deep hollow base, so they are shaped more like a cylinder of lead than a cup.
Brenneke THD ballistics
Managed recoil slugs deflect less, penetrate better, are capable of damaging the same or greater volume of tissue(admittedly in a smaller radius), are capable of a very large shock/stretch cavity, and seem more likely to punch through vitals and bone instead of deflecting off of it. Better performance through barriers, better control, and in the off chance ranges exceed those of a small house, they are far better at longer ranges. Slug gel tests also show they penetrate less than you might expect, with most 1oz managed recoil slugs meeting the 12"-18" penetration range through various barriers in the FBI protocol, they just do a lot of damage in that 12-18". I tried PDX1 and liked them except for the 3 00 pellets loaded with the slug, would be better with slug only, although all 4 projectiles group pretty tight. Standard full power foster slugs tend to break apart, and recoil is too much for shooting fast. The best I have found are Brenneke THD slugs, light recoil, accurate, the wad stays attatched to the slug, and the slug is far tougher with superior barrier penetration compared to thin hollow base foster slugs. They are stabilized by drag from the attached wad instead of a thin lead skirt from a deep hollow base, so they are shaped more like a cylinder of lead than a cup.
Brenneke THD ballistics
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Thank you, Sir, for steering real data our way. It is enlightening. I am old enough to have heard every type of ammo being called the greatest, and also the worst, possible thing to use. It just depended on who was offering that opinion at the time. I've been guilty myself on occasion.
I have worked the firing lanes in my house, and the max. range shot would be 8 yards, with a clean miss carrying the pellets out the open front door to the neighbor's house an additional 25 yards downrange across the street, while the barricaded-in-the-bedroom shot would be up to 5 yards before a miss exited through an exterior wall sheathed in vinyl siding. I live in a cheap modern frame house closely surrounded by neighbors in similar cheap frame houses, so the risk of over penetration is real. I use #4 buck, with 00 in the bandoleer.
smokey
2A TEACHER
- Jan 31, 2008
- 31,575
3" #1 buck here. My argument is overkill is good when dealing with a threat trying to hurt you or your family.
Sirex
Powered by natural gas
Buy some buckshot. If questioned following an incident, with th e approval of your lawyer,, just say it was what the guy in the store recommended for self defence, or was listed on the box as self defense. Just work the self defense theme. Don't make mention of max stopping power, or whatever. Play vague. Anything you say WILL be used against you.
Last edited:
- Dec 27, 2012
- 30,257
And scrub all your MDS posts
Mickey the Dragon
Ultimate Member
As previously pointed out in joppaj's home defense AAR, in a high stress environment many people have distinct changes in their perceptions of their surroundings. Sometimes things seem to slow down, sometimes you don't remember hearing or seeing things that were happening right next to you. You can forget entire portions of an event. For that reason, I would avoid making any statements that could be used against you until you've spoken with an attorney.
The only fish that gets caught is the one that opens its mouth.
CrazySanMan
2013'er
After an incident, say NOTHING.
Call a lawyer and decline to speak. It's your right.
Call a lawyer and decline to speak. It's your right.
Sirex
Powered by natural gas
Sorry, edited post. Talking about a general strategy if you are concerned with the "type" of ammo used. As I said, anything WILL be used against you, consult a lawyer. MD will do whatever it takes to make a defender hang.
Scarab
Active Member
I'm thinking perhaps a bird shot as a first shot and 00 Buck as a fast follow up (I have a Semi) in case the intruder doesn't get the message with the bird shot.
Scarab
Scarab
Fishguy
Ultimate Member
Scarab
Active Member
I know that with my semi I can get off 3 shot in less than 1 second. 
Scarab
Scarab
Mickey the Dragon
Ultimate Member
I know that with my semi I can get off 3 shot in less than 1 second.
Scarab
Correct. But if you're putting three rounds into someone in under a second, then what's the point in making one of those shots virtually useless?
If you're loading your shotgun with birdshot first and then with buck shot, it seems to me that you only have two options. Your first option is to shoot the assailant with birdshot and evaluate them to see if they are going to continue their assault before continuing to engage with buckshot. Your second option is to unload your birdshot and two rounds of buckshot into them in under a second and immediately end the confrontation. If you choose the first option, their response might involve firing shots in your direction or in the direction of your loved ones. If you choose the second option, then there wasn't much point in using the birdshot.
As for myself, once I have made the decision to engage someone with a deadly weapon, I'm not going to be taking periodic breaks to ask them whether they have had a change of heart.
Scarab
Active Member
Blackstar65
Ultimate Member
- Jun 27, 2010
- 1,003
Consider the Federal LE loads. The 00 buck with flight control wad has a pretty tight group even out to 25yards and it's low recoil. If you prefer slugs consider the LE slug loads.
Blackstar65
Ultimate Member
- Jun 27, 2010
- 1,003
But of your backstop isn't good enough for the ammo don't take the shot or don't miss.
- Dec 27, 2012
- 30,257
If they don't get the message after you say "stop or I'll shoot" then they shouldn't have a second, second chance. On the other hand if you are in a dynamic situation where a warning puts you at a defensive disadvantage, then you want to defend your family with the most lethal load, not the least lethal.
Scarab
Active Member
True. Good food for thought. Just like all of us I'm sure, I don't want to kill someone if at all possible to avoid it. Maim, incapacitate, or hurt badly, but not kill unless there is no other choice.
Scarab
