Shells for HD. What should I use?

[Bisleyfan44]

Managed recoil slugs deflect less, penetrate better, are capable of damaging the same or greater volume of tissue(admittedly in a smaller radius), are capable of a very large shock/stretch cavity, and seem more likely to punch through vitals and bone instead of deflecting off of it. Better performance through barriers, better control, and in the off chance ranges exceed those of a small house, they are far better at longer ranges. Slug gel tests also show they penetrate less than you might expect, with most 1oz managed recoil slugs meeting the 12"-18" penetration range through various barriers in the FBI protocol, they just do a lot of damage in that 12-18".

I prefer these for the same reasons although I use the reduced-recoil remington foster-type slug. If it's true they break apart inside the person, I guess I see that as good because that should reduce the risk of collateral damage if/when they exit the body. Never thought about it breaking apart inside a person.

But in every test I've done, most buckshot loads are basically still one "wound" at the ranges found in my home (longest distance is 6 yards outside the bedroom; in the bedroom it's 3 yds from muzzle to doorway) from a cylinder bore 500.

PS--try to not rely on performance figures or patterns at 20 yds, 25 yds, or further. They are meaningless in terms of real-world self defense applications. You can only legally shoot somebody in self-defense, not offensively. These distances are far more than most in-home distances by alot. Even 10 yds, 30feet, is a looong distance in most homes, let alone 75 feet. And trying to say you shot somebody outside your home defensively at these distances will be an uphill battle in court for sure, especially in MD.

 

[ericoak]

You shot someone in the chest with any size 12 gauge buckshot and its probably over. Or any size lead for that matter.

 

[photoracer]

The locked front door was supposed to serve as a deterrent, if the person gets past that then I want to utilize the tools best suited to stopping the threat and protecting myself and my family. A rubber bullet is not the best tool to stop a threat immediately. My HD shotgun is loaded with 3" 00 buck and my HD AR is loaded with 77-grain OTM in 5.56 from Black Hills. Regarding the choice of 00 buck, I live in a single-family home and my wife is the only other person in the house and any shots from my bedroom would either a) be going down the stairs into the ground or b) through at least one interior wall and one exterior wall and then it's 75 yards to the nearest house.

77g OTM? That has almost zero expansion in a target. Little better than 55g NATO in HD. You want some kind of hunting round if you want to do damage, plus you can always say you were prepping for a hunt. A 60g varmint round is superior to 69g-77g in an HD situation unless you are trying to pick them off at 600 yards.

 

[photoracer]

Used to favor 00 buck, basically a pre-fragmented projectile that penetrates deep with multiple wound channels and moderate recoil. Federal seem to pattern the tightest, which I prefer over a loose pattern for defense. On paper at least buck behaving more like a 485gr projectile that fragments into 9 pieces in a small area is superior to 9 individual 54gr .32cal pellets spread out. I have replaced my buck loads with managed recoil slugs, a 1oz around 1200-1300FPS. IMO buck doesn't scatter enough to turn a miss into a hit at home defense distances, but as a light/fast projectile they are more prone to deflection from cover, and penetration is reduced through barriers more than heavier projectiles. Where limiting "over" penetration is one thing that seems favorable to buck shot, in a few studies it seems to increase the risk of an errant pellet or the wad deflecting at a relatively high angle, and endangering bystanders.

Managed recoil slugs deflect less, penetrate better, are capable of damaging the same or greater volume of tissue(admittedly in a smaller radius), are capable of a very large shock/stretch cavity, and seem more likely to punch through vitals and bone instead of deflecting off of it. Better performance through barriers, better control, and in the off chance ranges exceed those of a small house, they are far better at longer ranges. Slug gel tests also show they penetrate less than you might expect, with most 1oz managed recoil slugs meeting the 12"-18" penetration range through various barriers in the FBI protocol, they just do a lot of damage in that 12-18". I tried PDX1 and liked them except for the 3 00 pellets loaded with the slug, would be better with slug only, although all 4 projectiles group pretty tight. Standard full power foster slugs tend to break apart, and recoil is too much for shooting fast. The best I have found are Brenneke THD slugs, light recoil, accurate, the wad stays attatched to the slug, and the slug is far tougher with superior barrier penetration compared to thin hollow base foster slugs. They are stabilized by drag from the attached wad instead of a thin lead skirt from a deep hollow base, so they are shaped more like a cylinder of lead than a cup.

Brenneke THD ballistics

That is the main reason I switched to Win PDX1 over buckshot. As I have said before I used to load 1 birdshot, 4 3" magnum #4B, followed by 3 slugs. The .650" rifled slug has a rounded nose which pushes on the plated 00B and forces them apart as it leaves the muzzle creating a wider pattern than cupped buckshot at closer ranges. I have seen the patterns out of an 18" barrel and even at 25' I would take it over a slug alone. Even one 00 hit is better than being missed by a slug all alone. And if the slug hits, the perp won't know the difference of which kind it is. As for rapid fire with slugs before I was a 3-gunner I once nailed 9 straight A zone hits on 9 targets in 7 seconds using an 870 pump in an IDPA shotgun event. But I can now do 4 seconds with a semi. Brenneke slugs work because they were designed primarily for hunting which means terminal performance is everything.
Another thing to consider is check the sight lines in your house and move anything you consider valuable out of the collateral damage zones.

 

[alucard0822]

I prefer these for the same reasons although I use the reduced-recoil remington foster-type slug. If it's true they break apart inside the person, I guess I see that as good because that should reduce the risk of collateral damage if/when they exit the body. Never thought about it breaking apart inside a person.

For the most part a Foster or Brenneke under 1400FPS won't come apart, over that velocity they tend to, with Brenneke being a little tougher. Most all standard and high velocity loads break up in gel tests, but lower velocities deform/crush to a larger diameter, but stay together for good penetration. There are a lot of sabots that have really good ballistics too, but need a rifled barrel, or at least a rifled choke to stabilize, and they tend to be expensive.

77g OTM? That has almost zero expansion in a target. Little better than 55g NATO in HD. You want some kind of hunting round if you want to do damage, plus you can always say you were prepping for a hunt. A 60g varmint round is superior to 69g-77g in an HD situation unless you are trying to pick them off at 600 yards.

556 can damage tissue a few different ways, it can expand to increase the diameter, and stabilize the slug, it can yaw/tumble to present a larger side profile, or it can fragment to tear multiple paths, in each case it has some capability to tear tissue from the stretch cavity. Problem with varmint rounds is they are almost unanimously designed for low penetration and fragmentation to do a lot of damage in a small space, problem is this doesn't wound deep enough for defense from humans. A conventional soft point or expanding bullet can nearly double the diameter, and will penetrate deep, only problem is the high velocity tends to shear petals, and the small caliber doesn't usually expand to a very large diameter, although heavier bullets slow velocity, and give more material to open up.

Most FMJ and OTM will yaw, give deep penetration, and cut a slot from the side profile of the bullet that may be a good bit larger than a bullet could expand conventionally. Only problem is that the bullet will present the largest wound channel in a couple spots for a few inches of penetration before it turns and punches a small hole again. FMJ can fragment into a couple large pieces, unlike a varmint rounds fine particle fragmentation, the few large pieces of an M193 or M855 can still penetrate sufficiently. Seems like the current consensus is on heavy for caliber rounds yawing to produce the most damage and penetrate well. The long bullets might cut a path up to 1" wide, cause stretch damage up to 8" deep, and tumble sideways every couple inches while penetrating 18-24", much better than turning a 4"x4" area into hamburger as a varmint round would.

 

[ericoak]

For the most part a Foster or Brenneke under 1400FPS won't come apart, over that velocity they tend to, with Brenneke being a little tougher. Most all standard and high velocity loads break up in gel tests, but lower velocities deform/crush to a larger diameter, but stay together for good penetration. There are a lot of sabots that have really good ballistics too, but need a rifled barrel, or at least a rifled choke to stabilize, and they tend to be expensive.



556 can damage tissue a few different ways, it can expand to increase the diameter, and stabilize the slug, it can yaw/tumble to present a larger side profile, or it can fragment to tear multiple paths, in each case it has some capability to tear tissue from the stretch cavity. Problem with varmint rounds is they are almost unanimously designed for low penetration and fragmentation to do a lot of damage in a small space, problem is this doesn't wound deep enough for defense from humans. A conventional soft point or expanding bullet can nearly double the diameter, and will penetrate deep, only problem is the high velocity tends to shear petals, and the small caliber doesn't usually expand to a very large diameter, although heavier bullets slow velocity, and give more material to open up.

Most FMJ and OTM will yaw, give deep penetration, and cut a slot from the side profile of the bullet that may be a good bit larger than a bullet could expand conventionally. Only problem is that the bullet will present the largest wound channel in a couple spots for a few inches of penetration before it turns and punches a small hole again. FMJ can fragment into a couple large pieces, unlike a varmint rounds fine particle fragmentation, the few large pieces of an M193 or M855 can still penetrate sufficiently. Seems like the current consensus is on heavy for caliber rounds yawing to produce the most damage and penetrate well. The long bullets might cut a path up to 1" wide, cause stretch damage up to 8" deep, and tumble sideways every couple inches while penetrating 18-24", much better than turning a 4"x4" area into hamburger as a varmint round would.

I am guessing your penetration numbers are in ballastic gelatin.

But since the average person shot head on is less than 12 inches thick, usually closer to 6inches, who cares about penetration after that. Or course it will probably hit bone on the way, but that material is completely neglected in ballistic gelatin tests. So how do you translate gelatin results to real life performance?

 

[Bafflingbs]

I'm a newbie to shotguns so I've been asking A LOT of questions recently. Here is one more!

I'm wondering what shell size/type/whatever is best for HD. If I have my shotgun loaded in a "readied state" I would like to hear what you all use. Obviously ANYTHING coming out of a shotgun is going to hurt an intruder, but what's considered the "best" for HD?

I have a Remington Versa Max Tactical that I will be using. It has a 22" barrel and the Remington ProBore Tactical Choke (which I'm not sure where in the spektrum of choke types it falls and I can't see to find any information on it. I sent Remington Customer Service an email but they haven't responded yet).

All opinions, answers, information welcome and thank you in advance!

Scarab

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu91.htm
Read this. It's very informative. It also says #1 buck is the best ammo for 12 gauges.

 

[alucard0822]

I am guessing your penetration numbers are in ballastic gelatin.

But since the average person shot head on is less than 12 inches thick, usually closer to 6inches, who cares about penetration after that. Or course it will probably hit bone on the way, but that material is completely neglected in ballistic gelatin tests. So how do you translate gelatin results to real life performance?

The idea being 12-18" of ballistic gel roughly corresponds to the average resistance through soft tissue to reach vitals, might actually work out to 6" of bone and muscle, or 20" of winter jacket and fat, can't really test on live people, so a replicable composite is the best we can get. Head on it might take 6" through bone and muscle to reach the vitals, from an upward angle to the side may be 18" through mostly soft tissue, add in clothing, some barriers, and there are even more variables to consider. Might have cases where 2" penetration to the neck can sever the spinal cord, yet 24" through an abdominal shot won't stop an attacker standing over you, the FBI protocall is the best scientific standard in a field where variables outnumber constants by a wide margin. The FBI's standard seems to be agreed upon by most experts as a good measure for sufficient penetration, and I'm comfortable with it myself.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

77g OTM? That has almost zero expansion in a target. Little better than 55g NATO in HD. You want some kind of hunting round if you want to do damage, plus you can always say you were prepping for a hunt. A 60g varmint round is superior to 69g-77g in an HD situation unless you are trying to pick them off at 600 yards.

Not a lot of expansion, but it penetrates ballistic gelatin over 12" and provides reliable fragmentation along the entire wound cavity. Here's a pretty lengthy write-up from some guys over at AR15.com, to include the ballistic gelatin and the fragmentation recovery. http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BTAmmoLabsTest6/Test6.htm

And you can go to Hornady and check out the ballistic effects of their different offerings, of note is the relatively shallow penetration of the 60-grain ballistic tipped round versus their 75-grain BTHP. The 77-grain OTM that I referenced provides superior penetration, fragmentation, and gives up little (if any) expansion versus a lighter, ballistic-tipped round. http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

 

[ericoak]

The idea being 12-18" of ballistic gel roughly corresponds to the average resistance through soft tissue to reach vitals, might actually work out to 6" of bone and muscle, or 20" of winter jacket and fat, can't really test on live people, so a replicable composite is the best we can get. Head on it might take 6" through bone and muscle to reach the vitals, from an upward angle to the side may be 18" through mostly soft tissue, add in clothing, some barriers, and there are even more variables to consider. Might have cases where 2" penetration to the neck can sever the spinal cord, yet 24" through an abdominal shot won't stop an attacker standing over you, the FBI protocall is the best scientific standard in a field where variables outnumber constants by a wide margin. The FBI's standard seems to be agreed upon by most experts as a good measure for sufficient penetration, and I'm comfortable with it myself.

I am less than impressed by the results of those tests. If they are shooting something that is close to a human body, not just a blob of soft tissue, I would be more impressed. At least some of those tests put denim in front, because even some thin layers of fabric can greatly change how a bullet performs, let alone bones.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

I am less than impressed by the results of those tests. If they are shooting something that is close to a human body, not just a blob of soft tissue, I would be more impressed. At least some of those tests put denim in front, because even some thin layers of fabric can greatly change how a bullet performs, let alone bones.

There is no perfect test, since one can never know what a particular assailant will be wearing, how their body will be positioned, and what their dimensions will be. The 12" penetration test simply provides a good baseline. But the Hornady document that I linked to does provide tests performed with various intermediate barriers. Until we can find a few hundred cadavers that we can thaw out and shoot in various conditions, there will always be shortcomings. But a round that penetrates 12" of gel will do better against a human being wearing their winter-weight Carhartt jacket than one that only penetrates 6-9" of gel.

 

[ericoak]

There is no perfect test, since one can never know what a particular assailant will be wearing, how their body will be positioned, and what their dimensions will be. The 12" penetration test simply provides a good baseline. But the Hornady document that I linked to does provide tests performed with various intermediate barriers. Until we can find a few hundred cadavers that we can thaw out and shoot in various conditions, there will always be shortcomings. But a round that penetrates 12" of gel will do better against a human being wearing their winter-weight Carhartt jacket than one that only penetrates 6-9" of gel.

Animals made up of similar tissue sounds like a good substitute to me.

 

[Mega]

Hornady Critical Defense 00 Buck

 

[smokey]

Used to favor 00 buck, basically a pre-fragmented projectile that penetrates deep with multiple wound channels and moderate recoil. Federal seem to pattern the tightest, which I prefer over a loose pattern for defense. On paper at least buck behaving more like a 485gr projectile that fragments into 9 pieces in a small area is superior to 9 individual 54gr .32cal pellets spread out. I have replaced my buck loads with managed recoil slugs, a 1oz around 1200-1300FPS. IMO buck doesn't scatter enough to turn a miss into a hit at home defense distances, but as a light/fast projectile they are more prone to deflection from cover, and penetration is reduced through barriers more than heavier projectiles. Where limiting "over" penetration is one thing that seems favorable to buck shot, in a few studies it seems to increase the risk of an errant pellet or the wad deflecting at a relatively high angle, and endangering bystanders.

Managed recoil slugs deflect less, penetrate better, are capable of damaging the same or greater volume of tissue(admittedly in a smaller radius), are capable of a very large shock/stretch cavity, and seem more likely to punch through vitals and bone instead of deflecting off of it. Better performance through barriers, better control, and in the off chance ranges exceed those of a small house, they are far better at longer ranges. Slug gel tests also show they penetrate less than you might expect, with most 1oz managed recoil slugs meeting the 12"-18" penetration range through various barriers in the FBI protocol, they just do a lot of damage in that 12-18". I tried PDX1 and liked them except for the 3 00 pellets loaded with the slug, would be better with slug only, although all 4 projectiles group pretty tight. Standard full power foster slugs tend to break apart, and recoil is too much for shooting fast. The best I have found are Brenneke THD slugs, light recoil, accurate, the wad stays attatched to the slug, and the slug is far tougher with superior barrier penetration compared to thin hollow base foster slugs. They are stabilized by drag from the attached wad instead of a thin lead skirt from a deep hollow base, so they are shaped more like a cylinder of lead than a cup.

Brenneke THD ballistics

some slug tests in gel for pals considering loading the same. The idea absolutely has merit for defense, guy. Here's a video of win super x in gel friend. Notice the expansion and penetration of the slug, buddy.


and here's the 'merican version of the test with the same slug.



...definitely has some ass to it and does it's work in an ideal range for incapacitation. Still not sure I'm wild about that hole bored straight through a 4x4 though...

 

[wilcam47]

Door breacher round

Vest or not....your gonna have a bad day if you get hit by one LOL..

 

[smokey]

I got bored

I worked on fixing up the 870 a bit today, and then got curious about ammo for it. I've picked up a couple different loads to try to get out and pattern, but before that, I wanted to see what was inside the things. I figured if I was going to take these things apart, I may as well include you'all in the fun.
Here's the shells I had...







The theme is if it's worth killing, it's worth overkilling...and if it comes back, I'm prepared for that too.

The first one I took apart was the big daddy...the 24 pellet 1 buck load. I love 1 buck as a defensive loading because these loads generally have a 20-30% greater cross-sectional area than OO, since there's less negative space in the shell. There's also many more pellets to create wound tracks with. It's the smallest buckshot that reliably penetrates past 12" in gel, and doesn't overpenetrate as much as OO. This 3" load does have the drawback of kicking like a mule though.



I'd seen a review of winchester super x 2 3/4" OO in the bulk pack from w-mart, and it didn't have a shot cup or even buffer media, just a couple of fiber wads behind soft lead shot. I was pleasantly surprised to see both buffer media and a plastic shot cup inside there. Also I noted how much better sealed the shell was than with the fed or hornady shells. I was surprised to see that it didn't really have that much powder compared to the federal load. I did a comparitive hardness test by squeezing the pellets with my leatherman MUT as hard as I could with my right hand. The winchester pellet squished like silly putty, the lead is pretty damned soft in this load.



On to the federal load...

 

[smokey]

The federal load just seemed to have more quality than the winchester. The two-part wad/cup was nifty and I anticipate a tighter pattern from it. The buffer media was also finer and seemed brittle. While cutting it apart, the buffer media would crumble a bit into finer dust. The coarser media of the winchester was essentially just plastic pellets. The pellets were plated and when given the old squeeze test were substantially harder than the winchester pellets. There was a lot more powder in this shell than in the other two and it was much larger flakes.




Now here's the interesting load to me. Is it gimmicky as hell? Yup. Are zombies super played-out now....yup. Is it a good load....actually...yeah. Looky what we got there, hornady's version of the flite-control wad. I anticipate that this will be the tightest grouping of the three loads when I go pattern them as a result. There's only 8 pellets, but they're truckin at 1600 ft/s. The pellets aren't plated, but in the ol' squeeze test, they were every bit as hard as the federal pellets. They didn't deform much at all. There wasn't as much powder as federal's magnum load, and it seemed to be of similar kind to the winchester powder.


group shots...



So what's the winner? Welp, my 870 currently holds 4 of the 3", and also holds 4 of the 2 3/4". While I believe the hornady will pattern the best(I still have to go shoot them and see), my gun has a fixed modified barrel, which should tighten the other two up a bit, and the farthest possible shot in my apt is about 10 yards....so any of the 3 should have plenty tight of a pattern for HD distances. If not, I've got some slugs in the side-saddle I could changeover to. I'm going to stick with the 24 pellets of 1 buck for the moment, pattern everything, and see if I change my mind then. If 24 pellets of 1 buck doesn't put someone down(96 pellets if I unload all 4 shells), I don't really think anything will.

 

[Sirex]

View attachment 115179 View attachment 115180
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The federal load just seemed to have more quality than the winchester. The two-part wad/cup was nifty and I anticipate a tighter pattern from it. The buffer media was also finer and seemed brittle. While cutting it apart, the buffer media would crumble a bit into finer dust. The coarser media of the winchester was essentially just plastic pellets. The pellets were plated and when given the old squeeze test were substantially harder than the winchester pellets. There was a lot more powder in this shell than in the other two and it was much larger flakes.

View attachment 115182 View attachment 115183
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Now here's the interesting load to me. Is it gimmicky as hell? Yup. Are zombies super played-out now....yup. Is it a good load....actually...yeah. Looky what we got there, hornady's version of the flite-control wad. I anticipate that this will be the tightest grouping of the three loads when I go pattern them as a result. There's only 8 pellets, but they're truckin at 1600 ft/s. The pellets aren't plated, but in the ol' squeeze test, they were every bit as hard as the federal pellets. They didn't deform much at all. There wasn't as much powder as federal's magnum load, and it seemed to be of similar kind to the winchester powder.


group shots...
View attachment 115188
View attachment 115189

So what's the winner? Welp, my 870 currently holds 4 of the 3", and also holds 4 of the 2 3/4". While I believe the hornady will pattern the best(I still have to go shoot them and see), my gun has a fixed modified barrel, which should tighten the other two up a bit, and the farthest possible shot in my apt is about 10 yards....so any of the 3 should have plenty tight of a pattern for HD distances. If not, I've got some slugs in the side-saddle I could changeover to. I'm going to stick with the 24 pellets of 1 buck for the moment, pattern everything, and see if I change my mind then. If 24 pellets of 1 buck doesn't put someone down(96 pellets if I unload all 4 shells), I don't really think anything will.

Hey, that's a pretty good dissection. Please post the grouping results when you shoot them, I have a few of those loads. Very interested in the results. Thx

 

[smokey]

Hey, that's a pretty good dissection. Please post the grouping results when you shoot them, I have a few of those loads. Very interested in the results. Thx

Will do. I do have a fixed modified barrel though, so depending on the setup of other people, the results will most likely be representative in a relative way(this load groups tighter than that load) but not in a raw way.

 

[Vile Shadow]

What are your opinions on these?