.223, like it were 22 hornet

So I am trying to solve all of life's mysteries right now and fantasizing about getting away to more land, a quieter life and being able to get out and shoot a ton on my own property. I'll admit, I am a low drama kind of guy and I like low recoil, low flash, low blast and quiet shooting.

Hence why I am going all in on cans lately.

Anyway, I am fantasizing about this future where I can keep a rifle on an ATV or farm truck or just hike around on my property with one and then if I see a varmint, shoot a varmint. And be all quiet and kind to my ears and my neighbors (sort of the opposite of wanting a bunch of land I guess, but good neighbors are always nice).

I like the idea of a 22 hornet with a can. But reloading sounds like a PITD. And the barrels are pretty universally slow twist. AND almost no one makes anything in them.

I then thought 22TCM, but wait, those are even slower twist barrels and Rock Island doesn't make anything threaded and I don't want to have to spend ~$200 on top of a $400 rifle and brass is pretty well non-existent, same with factory ammo.

And then I thought, hmm, maybe .221 fireball. Cz at least makes a gun in it, but not threaded and also slow twist (but a little better).

And then I thought 218 Bee, oh but no one makes anything in that any more and extant options are severely limited. Also only slow twists.

Part of my goal is to be able to fire 55gr bullets, because CHEAP, but fire them at very moderate velocities. I'd be looking for maybe around 2000fps out of a 16" barrel to around 2200fps out of a 20". Ability to fire 45gr hornet jhp bullets at around 2800fps max.

Being able to do MORE is a minor perk. If it could also fire something like 62-85gr bullets at subsonic velocities, great. But not really key.

So that brings me back to the humble 223. Is that even possible? I know that it actually IS possible. The case has the capacity to do all of that. I am looking for a bolt gun 16-22" in barrel length (maybe Tikka T3 lite) and threaded. But my bigger question, is it possible with the right powder selection to actually develop a load with those very moderate velocities. I know you can do subsonic loads with small loads of pistol powders. But what about ACCURATE and consistent loads with very moderate velocities with a lighter weight bullet?

So far my experience is loading spherical ball powders to develop big boy velocities using 55, 62 and 69gr bullets for the .223. And my experience has been reduced consistency and accuracy once I am dropping below around 2600fps with a 62gr bullet from a 20" barrel (and under about 2800fps with 55gr). Juice it up a little and my ES is well under 50fps, but get much below it and I am seeing ES of 80-100fps on 5 shot groups. Now this is with an AR, not a bolt gun. But I don't see how it would make that much a difference. My 16" AR sees a similar pattern (though of course a lower velocity).

Since I'd be looking at even lighter weight bullets, is this more finding just the right powder? Would switching up to magnum primers help with consistency on light charges? I've been using CCI SR. No experience with anything else to ignite it yet (I do have Winchester SR and CCI #41. I just haven't broken in to any of it yet).

Yes, I realize that a suppressed 223 bolt gun with a moderate length barrel in the 20-24" range is pretty quiet and recoil is really nothing to remark on. But my very limited experience firing a 22 hornet once (not suppressed) as well as the difference between minimum starting charge and working my way up, if I thumb in something with a minimum charge pushing a 62gr@2300fps out of a 20" and then thumb in one pushing a 62gr@2900fps and that 2900fps pill is significantly louder and higher recoil.

Plus with very moderate pressures, brass life should be extensive and very uncommon need to trim brass. Less brass prep is a perk.

So those are my thoughts. Do I need to be looking at something like H4895? I've seen some mentions of that for reduced power rifle loads. Is this unobtanium?

I’ve gone down this road before. I tried this for my bolt action .223 (heavy barrel Savage 10). The sound difference between moderate velocity 5.56 or .223 at around 1800 fps is indiscernible to me when compared to the same bullet at 3100 fps. As long as the can is capturing the muzzle blast the bullet flight noise is still supersonic bullet flight noise. With a small volume can, you might hear a difference. On top of that, the accuracy sucked at reduced loads. Not horrible, but also no where near as good as the full power loads.

Have Contender barrels
218 Bee
22 Hornet (4x Leupold EER)
22 K Hornet
22 Jet
221 Fireball (4x Leupold EER)
no issues reloading any of them, yes the 22 Hornet will collapse cases
"if" you don't do a little prep, chamfer the case mouth and bullets with
"rounded" base, used a wide range of bullet weights, blitz, sx, and others,
plus some homemade (22LR cases) the results will surprise you. Have the
XP-100 in 221 FB with 4x EER Leupold shoots good, 50gr Blitz bullets, used
to bring it along when I was helping my cousin make hay, lay it up on the
tractor fender and done. had a nice trigger...

finding a bolt action in 22 Hornet, right now is gonna be a little hard. "If"
you could find a Savage 340B they shoot decent... friend had one. The S.A.
M6 in 22 Hornet is nice for what it is, doesn't shoot bad it's the backup to
the Contender.

Or find an action and have one built...to your specs

Reloading any of them is pretty much straight forward, the Hornets are "sweet"
to shoot and the others also..easy on powder, once again just fun to shoot....

they are a refreshing break from "handcannon" rounds Herretts, JDJ's,
14" 45/70, 35 Rem...


-Rock

I don't reload any of those cartridges but I will say my 223 AR with my 30 cal can sounds like a 22LR
I do 210gr (approx) 300BLK subsonic with the same can and it sounds like an airsoft gun. You mostly hear the bolt/action. Its GTG w/o hearing protection.

Its a simple 8" Form 1 can with cone shaped freeze plugs.

I have a stamp for another Form1 can that will be specific to 223. I'll be curious if its actually any quieter.

A .22 K Hornet Contender Carbine is on my wish list. A little more case capacity than the Hornet.

Don't forget the .222 Remington which was the inspiration for the .223. The .222 has a little less case capacity.

Here are some custom barrel choices, they also make custom firearms:
https://www.bullberrylegacy.com/oldcustom-contender-barrels

Any reason to not go with a 22wmr? If you want to be all fancy-pants, 5.7x28.

Blacksmith101 said:

Don't forget the .222 Remington which was the inspiration for the .223. The .222 has a little less case capacity.

Click to expand...

yes sir Rem 40 X is a tack driver with some Bergers

-Rock

Rockzilla said:

yes sir Rem 40 X is a tack driver with some Bergers

-Rock

Click to expand...

The .222 held a lot of records back in the day before the 6MM PPC came along.

Coincidentally, I was thinking somewhere around that same thing this morning. Only I was looking to go a little lower. Towards the 22 Mag. Anyway there may be some info here to get you started.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/working-down-223-loads-to-22-mag-power.878424/

Yup 22WMR isn't bad out of a 22 suppressor. A few centerfire 22s might be a hair quieter than 223, but going to be far more difficult to get a rifle together, and probably far more downsides. IMO use std velocity segmented 22 if you need it really quiet, and under 100 yards, 223 and a centerfire can if it's further than that. 22mag can be cool, basically doubles the range of 22, but it's loud, might work well if you have a good rimfire can, but still well short of 223 ballostics

1. Yes , yes you download .223 . You will have to experement between slow powders , reduced loads of usual medium powders, and fast powders for best accuracy in your rifle , but that's all part of the fun and adventure .

1.5. Muzzle blast ( supressed or unsupressed ) isn't effected by velocity beyond sonic vs subsonic , it's the muzzle pressure and volume of gasses .

2. If you go that route , there are a number of cases of smaller volume . Likely your best route would include rebarelling or rechambering .

For a bolt action the .221 Fireball would be simplist . For a single shot ( hint- Contender Carbine ) rimmed ctgs such as Hornet & variations , Bee , or .22 Jet . ( Jet is least likely to ever see factory ammo , but uses the common .357 mag as parent case .)

Wild Card - Reconsider the bore diameter . Your intended parameters are reinventing the wheel for the once extremely popular ( over there ) British Rook Rifles . They had various calibers , but the archetype was the .310 Rook , which was almost identical to .32-20 , and another Rook ctg actually was a renamed .32 COLT Long . Modern- ish American single shot fanciers would used .32 S&W Long chambers because of the brass availability .

So 300 BLK is out of the question because of reloading expenses? Otherwise seems meet your other criteria (coyote capable, won't disturb neighbors) and there are good, inexpensive 300 BLK bolt guns that can be suppressor hosts. Forget if you have posted having 30 caliber suppressor, but seem to recollect that you might have a rifle in 7.62x39.

Melnic said:

...
I do 210gr (approx) 300BLK subsonic with the same can and it sounds like an airsoft gun. You mostly hear the bolt/action. Its GTG w/o hearing protection.
...

Click to expand...

Yeah, this really seems ideal.

221Fireball w/ Suppressor?

Consider:
- XP-100 or XP-100R chambered in .223 or .221F (many available used ~$600 to $1000+ stock)
- either already chambered in 221Fireball, or buy 221Fireball barrel for .223 sized .378" bolt (many available used ~$60-$100)
- have threaded (~$75?), or buy custom barrel
- add suppressor
- add scope (many in the above price range include scopes/bases rings)
- die sets and high quality brass commonly available
- much smaller case capacity (you already know this)
- potential for lower cost(?) 221F / .223 switch barrel for reaching out further
- lotsa fun - no need for a rifle - the ultimate squirrel/groundhog handgun?





I may go this route myself with one of my 221F barrels . . .

Yeah, bit of a shame that there's no 22 TCM threaded rifle, because that really does seem like the ideal solution for you. You can form 22 TCM brass out of 5.56 brass, and in non-9R form, the bullets are not so tough to source. Wish Armscor had been a little less proprietary about it; the world seems like it's ready for a 5.56 Short sort of caliber, and I've seen some cool wildcats based around it.

I dunno, for the stated purpose that involves low numbers of rounds being fired, 300BLK seems like what you need.

You can load 55gr bullets with Titegroup, Clays, or Trailboss to around 22lr standard velocity.
Or you can try the 60% of max charge of H-4895 that should bring you in around 22hornet levels, I think.
Don't know how the accuracy would be.

Blacksmith101 said:

The .222 held a lot of records back in the day before the 6MM PPC came along.

Click to expand...

yeah it did and there were "lots" of rifles chambered for it. Ralph Brown
Trading Post had several 40x 222's back in the day, they had one with a
SS "heavy" barrel that seemed to disappear that day 22PPC & 6mm
PPC came along. Let a Rem 722 in 222 slip through my hands was at a
great price, not to long ago. another will come along.

@KRC
The XP-100 made a great varmint rig, 50gr Blitz bullets, 4x Leupold EER glass
that's all that was needed. same with the Contender 10" Bull Barrel same glass
for my other varmint rigs were Old rear tang Ruger M77V's with 36x Leupold
glass, one in 220 Swift, other 25-06.

-Rock

Norton said:

I dunno, for the stated purpose that involves low numbers of rounds being fired, 300BLK seems like what you need.

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I’ll probably get a 300BO at some point also. For me I’ve been looking at 22s as projectiles are significantly cheaper (it’s half to a quarter the mass, so even casting my own projectiles it uses less). For varminting, a 45gr JHP at between 2000-2600fps would be pretty flat and very low recoil for fast follow-ups.

The 300BO would be much heavier hitting for subs, but with varmints, it is either shooting heavy hitting subs and lobbing it in there at longer ranges, or shoot 110s at 2200fps, which may be somewhat less flat shooting and is going to be generating a lot more gas to suppress and the bullet generates a larger supersonic crack because of the larger base size even if you suppressed the muzzle gases as well as the 22.

I probably just have to play the hand dealt. And a 223 or 300BO would likely just get the job done for me. Just trying to figure out if there could be other options where I can run a mild 22 as well as subs with the same cartridge and run a can. All at a vaguely reasonable price. Seems like no. Wildcat it. convert something to an existing uncommon cartridge. Or Get a .223 or 300BO bolt gun and play around with reloading to see if I can get what I want.

OP, what do you see as the advantage of having a .22 centerfire, and then wanting to load it down to a point where you can effectively turn it into what a subsonic 22 rimfire would otherwise be? What am I missing?

Yeah, agree. It's a bit a no free lunch issue with regards to the performance constraints. Understand that the OP wants to approach this economically, and is wondering if there's a path.

But considering suppressability and performance for larger varmint size game, I think a larger payload helps. Something going 2000+ fps will be noisier than something going under 1100 fps. The 200+ grain 300 BLK round will have better terminal effects.

Subsonic 300 BLK zeroed at 100 drops 12 inches at 150 yards and quite a bit more thereafter, so that is a disadvantage if someone is keen to shoot 200-300 yards. However the accuracy of the bullets at 100 yard and greater differences is really excellent. By contrast, 22LR and 22WMR groups really open up in most platforms at 100 or greater yards. (realize that he's looking at 223 bullets which likely retain spin better even at slower speeds)