Rem 870, now ready for HD and Zombies

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  • jaywade

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 2, 2009
    1,464
    Leesburg, VA
    so you shot slugs through that huh?

    can I shoot slugs through my mossberg 590? never thought to do that , infact I thought you needed a rifled barrel for slugs??

    can you hurt a smooth bored shotgun barrel w/ slugs?
     

    Eudaimonia

    Active Member
    Sep 1, 2009
    558
    The choke is what matters for safety. Rifling just makes it more accurate. Alucard's targets show that at defensive distances, that slug is going to go where you want it without rifling.


    I've seen it said that full chokes shouldn't be used with slugs, but Mossberg just recommends against using turkey chokes. Check their FAQ here: http://www.mossberg.com/content.asp?ID=508&section=resources
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    so you shot slugs through that huh?

    can I shoot slugs through my mossberg 590? never thought to do that , infact I thought you needed a rifled barrel for slugs??

    can you hurt a smooth bored shotgun barrel w/ slugs?

    You can shoot most any slug through either rifled or smooth bores, although there are some problems with certain types of slugs in rifled or smooth bores. Basically most all slugs fit into 4 categories, foster, brenneke, partition sabots, and cup sabots. At the low end, a foster slug through a smooth bore usually groups into about 8"-12" at best out to 100 yards, while a ballistic tipped sabot through a riled barrel can group into an inch or two. The only problems occur with different chokes used in smooth bore guns. For slugs, an improved cylinder choke is best, it slightly tapers down to help make the most of slugs with exterior rifling, although a cylinder bore can also shoot them well. Tighter chokes crush the slug down more, and deform it, usually giving poor accuracy, and in the case of full, or "extra full" turkey chokes they can impart enough of a restriction that pressures can get dangerously high. There are also rifled choke tubes, they are usuall too short to work with sabots, and often times don't help much with foster and brenneke slugs. They do however have enough rifling to spin shot cups, and can give erratic donut shaped paterns similar to shooting shot shells from a rifled slug barrel.

    Foster slugs are the most common, and usually the cheapest. Some are rifled on the exterior, although it doesn't usually impart enough spin on the bullet to gyroscopically stabilize the slug, although a rifled choke or slug barrel can. Thing is, by design they don't need to be, the base is deeply hollow, and this stabilizes them similar to a badminton shuttlecock. Some are hollow point, although the nose cavity cannot be that deep in order to maintain stability, they tend to deform and flatten when they hit, and of course being pretty big to begin with they punch a pretty big hole anyway. They use a cusion wad similar to shot loads that separates soon after the slug leaves the barrel, and can cause damage in it's own right out to about 25 yards as it will take off in a random direction once it leaves the slug.

    284953_d.jpg
    Rem_Dougs_cutaway_th.jpg


    Brenneke slugs stabilize similarly to foster style, but instead of having a deep hollow base, the plastic, felt or fiber cusion wad stays attatched as they fly to keep them nose forward. For this reason they can be solid to penetrate deeply, or use a more significant hollow nose cavity to expand more than foster slugs. They are usually more expensive than foster slugs, and occasionally the wad can detatch from the slug, and it will tumble in flight as a result if shot from a smooth bore.

    GFex_1008_ammoA.jpg



    Partition sabots came about in response to rifled slug barrels. A sabot is simply a case around the slug usually plastic that is designed to seal the bore, yet separate from the slug after leaving the barrel. They will not stabilize in a smooth bore usually being solid and hour glass shaped to keep the sabot from separating from the slug in the barrel, sometimes with a hollow nose to expand, the plastic sabot consists of 2 halves that are thicker in the middle to match the thinner middle of the slug, and make a cylinder profile when the sabot is clamped together around the slug. This design still used a cushion wad under the slug and sabot in many cases, and terminal performance was kinda erratic being they would yaw if they didn't expand. Accuracy was better than anytihng out of a smooth bore though. They were also a smaller diameter than the barrel because of the sabot being around the slug.

    s7_212291_imageset_01


    The newest and most advanced slugs use the combination of a cup type sabot where the slug is simply placed in the sabot, and being the sabot covers the base, a separate cushion wad is not needed. They use advanced jacketed or guilding metal expanding bullets, sometimes with polymer ballistic tips similar to modern handgun bullets in design. Like the partition sabot they use a smaller diameter slug than the barrel, but the slug is able to be shaped to be much more aerodynamic, and can be by far the most accurate type of slug rivalling some rifle loads in some cases, and with the most consistent terminal performance due to the advanced bullet designs available. They are also the most expensive, and while they may stabilize out of a smooth bore for a few yards, they are designed for use in rifled bores.

    remipicpremcoppersolid12ga2.jpg
     

    jaywade

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 2, 2009
    1,464
    Leesburg, VA
    You can shoot most any slug through either rifled or smooth bores, although there are some problems with certain types of slugs in rifled or smooth bores. Basically most all slugs fit into 4 categories, foster, brenneke, partition sabots, and cup sabots. At the low end, a foster slug through a smooth bore usually groups into about 8"-12" at best out to 100 yards, while a ballistic tipped sabot through a riled barrel can group into an inch or two. The only problems occur with different chokes used in smooth bore guns. For slugs, an improved cylinder choke is best, it slightly tapers down to help make the most of slugs with exterior rifling, although a cylinder bore can also shoot them well. Tighter chokes crush the slug down more, and deform it, usually giving poor accuracy, and in the case of full, or "extra full" turkey chokes they can impart enough of a restriction that pressures can get dangerously high. There are also rifled choke tubes, they are usuall too short to work with sabots, and often times don't help much with foster and brenneke slugs. They do however have enough rifling to spin shot cups, and can give erratic donut shaped paterns similar to shooting shot shells from a rifled slug barrel.

    Foster slugs are the most common, and usually the cheapest. Some are rifled on the exterior, although it doesn't usually impart enough spin on the bullet to gyroscopically stabilize the slug, although a rifled choke or slug barrel can. Thing is, by design they don't need to be, the base is deeply hollow, and this stabilizes them similar to a badminton shuttlecock. Some are hollow point, although the nose cavity cannot be that deep in order to maintain stability, they tend to deform and flatten when they hit, and of course being pretty big to begin with they punch a pretty big hole anyway. They use a cusion wad similar to shot loads that separates soon after the slug leaves the barrel, and can cause damage in it's own right out to about 25 yards as it will take off in a random direction once it leaves the slug.

    284953_d.jpg
    Rem_Dougs_cutaway_th.jpg


    Brenneke slugs stabilize similarly to foster style, but instead of having a deep hollow base, the plastic, felt or fiber cusion wad stays attatched as they fly to keep them nose forward. For this reason they can be solid to penetrate deeply, or use a more significant hollow nose cavity to expand more than foster slugs. They are usually more expensive than foster slugs, and occasionally the wad can detatch from the slug, and it will tumble in flight as a result if shot from a smooth bore.

    GFex_1008_ammoA.jpg



    Partition sabots came about in response to rifled slug barrels. A sabot is simply a case around the slug usually plastic that is designed to seal the bore, yet separate from the slug after leaving the barrel. They will not stabilize in a smooth bore usually being solid and hour glass shaped to keep the sabot from separating from the slug in the barrel, sometimes with a hollow nose to expand, the plastic sabot consists of 2 halves that are thicker in the middle to match the thinner middle of the slug, and make a cylinder profile when the sabot is clamped together around the slug. This design still used a cushion wad under the slug and sabot in many cases, and terminal performance was kinda erratic being they would yaw if they didn't expand. Accuracy was better than anytihng out of a smooth bore though. They were also a smaller diameter than the barrel because of the sabot being around the slug.

    s7_212291_imageset_01


    The newest and most advanced slugs use the combination of a cup type sabot where the slug is simply placed in the sabot, and being the sabot covers the base, a separate cushion wad is not needed. They use advanced jacketed or guilding metal expanding bullets, sometimes with polymer ballistic tips similar to modern handgun bullets in design. Like the partition sabot they use a smaller diameter slug than the barrel, but the slug is able to be shaped to be much more aerodynamic, and can be by far the most accurate type of slug rivalling some rifle loads in some cases, and with the most consistent terminal performance due to the advanced bullet designs available. They are also the most expensive, and while they may stabilize out of a smooth bore for a few yards, they are designed for use in rifled bores.

    remipicpremcoppersolid12ga2.jpg

    thanks for the info

    I use sabbot's slugs in my deer shotgun (w/ a rifled barrel) never thought about using them in my HD gun w/ a smoth bore ... I guess for close shots it would still do the job great knock down power ..... so I'm thinking to put the 3rd round in my chamber a slug and put 2 more in the sleave sock carrier I have on it ....found some nice hp tip slugs for home defense Mossberg say they should/will work...
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    I think I finally have it set up about as well as it can be. I drilled and tapped the reciever for an EGW rail(for occasionally mounting a red-dot or low power scope mostly for deer), slapped on a Knoxx power pack with 5 shell holder, battery compartment and cheek peice, got a longer Blackhawk! mountain sling, a QD flashlight mount for my Hellfighter X-8, and basically did a little bit of tweaking to work out the bugs. The shotgun now has 7 rounds loaded(stored action open, full tube 1 on the ramp), 5 rounds on the carrier, and another 12 rounds in Choate speed clips, making for a total of 24 shells at the ready, should be more than enough for any social needs, and backed up by my XD(M) 40 with GLOCK light/laser or my M&P 9c CCW peice during the day, I am content with this setup for home defense.

    S7300553.jpg
     

    Boondock Saint

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 11, 2008
    24,493
    White Marsh
    Never thought of storing the shotgun with the bolt open and one on the ramp...

    I'm off to make that change to mine and look up the Knoxx power pack. I didn't think such a thing existed for the SpecOps stocks.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    Never thought of storing the shotgun with the bolt open and one on the ramp...

    I'm off to make that change to mine and look up the Knoxx power pack. I didn't think such a thing existed for the SpecOps stocks.

    To get the shotgun "Alucard ready", safety on, load the tube, completely open the action(pushing 1 shell onto the feed ramp, push the feedramp up to hold the shell in place, then top off the tube, safety off. This way you have almost 0 chance of it firing if dropped, if you pick it up, and look at the chamber, it is apparent a shell is on the feed ramp, and if something goes bump in the night, you simply grab the gun and lift it up by the forend closing the action and chambering a shell while retaining a full tube. The other way to keep it loaded +1 is to load it with the action closed and 1 in the chamber, basically if the hammer slips from the sear for any reason it will fire, and the safety is kinda sucky on the 870s especially with the knoxx stock. "Cruiser ready" meaning empty chamber, closed action, hammer down, loaded tube robs you of 1 shell, and you have to fully rack the action, slower and louder than my method, you also run the risk of the hammer being left cocked, and having to use the bolt release lever to load the first shell, possibly introducing an extra step.

    My method is second in speed only to a gun loaded condition 0, +1 loaded, safety off, but IMO safer, and the first shell is chambered simply by picking it up briskly. It is important that the feed ramp is up to hold the shell in place so it doesn't inadvertently fall out when picking the gun up, or jamming it. It does take some practice to get used to it, and to keep you safe, I started with a cleared gun, then to snap caps, then to loaded and live at the range. Stored vertically, muzzle up, you want to reach out and grab it by the forend with your weak hand, pull it straight out twards you, then briskly lift it up as you quickly turn 90 degrees to your left and rotate the stock to your shoulder(turning quick helps to lift the stock up), raise your strong hand from behind and underneath to get a good grip on the pistol grip, making 100% sure your finger comes to rest along side the reciever, and nowhere near the trigger, then pull back a little on the forearm to make sure it is in battery. You do not want to grab the pistol grip from the side or before the stock is at shoulder level, because it is too easy to get a finger inside the trigger guard thinking you are grabbing the grip, and being the safety is off, the gun will fire if this happens, and you want to really pay attention that you keep the muzzle pointed away from your face. After some practice, you can do all this very quickly and smoothly. I am a big fan of techniques that concentrate on big deliberate motions instead of small dextrous ones(like placing your palm over a slide to rack it after a reload instead of hitting the slide release with your thumb). After a few practice sessions, you will be able to safely and quickly go from having the gun safely stored to ready to go with a full load in a second or two, just take it slow, practice this extensively with a cleared gun, and pay close attention to where the muzzle is pointed, where the trigger is, and where you are.

    S7300556.jpg

    As far as the Knoxx Power pack goes, I was a little underwhelmed at first, but it has proven to be more comfortable shooting with it. You can set up the power pack any way you want it, included are 2 cheek rests, 1 flat(irons or a bead sight), and one triangular shaped raised one(optics), then the 5 shell holder and battery compartment (holds 2x AA or CR123, and comes with a pair of ear plugs in it that keep the batteries from rattling). You bolt on the accesories you want to the low rest, or slip the high rest over the low rest, and then bolt the accesories through both peices.

    I was mostly looking for something to keep my cheek from being pinche or slapped by the moving "buffer tube", and it does this well, although in my case with the cheek peice only engaging the front 3 horizontal dimples on the stock instead of seated all the way to the rear, and engaging all 4 as designed. It is secure enough, and allows me to rest my cheek on the rest about 2" further forward than I could before for fear of getting pinched by the tube. The shell holder is secure enough, and also being mounted a little more forward than designed it is easier to get to.

    I got a couple choate shell speed loaders after seeing similar ones demoed in a pro shooter video, even if you simply drop one into your front pocket or have one clipped onto your nightstand they basically place the shells in your hand in a perfect way to load very fast, even more so if you have them secured on your belt, the ones I have hold 6, and can fully load an empty tube, although I just grab 3 or 4 shells at a time out of one, load them, and then grab the rest to finish the reload, trying to grab all 6 really slows me down being it is hard to keep all of them in position as I load them, but 3 can be shucked into the tube very quickly. I have also practiced counting shots at the range, and doing reload drills weak hand from the saddle and the shell holders being a shotguns biggest weakness is reload time and low capacity. This way, I can practice reloading quickly, and keeping the gun topped off without loading too many, or running it dry, should come in handy for 3 gun, or defense if needed.

     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    Think I finally got all the bugs worked out. Went to the range last night to try it out in the dark, shot a few rounds in the fading light at some clays on the berm, and the night sights seem to work great, then set up a target and stand to try out the flashlight as it basically was dark by then. I locked the flashlight on(QD mount) walked out to the 20yd line, loaded up 7 rounds of 00 buck, fired 3, loaded 2 from the saddle, then got 2 more down range when the light worked itself loose and fell off. I guess this is why we test and train:o. I got it back home, drilled and tapped the mount for a pair of set screws that lock into a small recess in the flashlight body, and tightened the mount abut as far as I could without breaking it, the mount clicked right back into place on the rail, and held up for 50 rounds of bird shot and a box of slugs without budging, so looks like it is GTG.

    It is really nice to be able to shoot at night, it is a lot tougher than it looks, and lining up a dim target with subtle tritium dots is tough, using the flashlight on the front lets me see the dark silouette of the sights well enough to shoot accurately, faster than the night sights by themselves, but slower than I can shoot during the day. It is much harder to shoot a handgun in the dark, and this is where a laser really helps get on the target quickly, a flashlight is a little slower, night sights only are slower still, and without any help it is near impossible unless you can still see the target a little bit, and can point shoot being you can't see the sights. I'm still working on that, and night shoting in general, but it should be a handy skill to have, and good practice if ever I should need to use it.




    5 rounds of 00 buck from 20 yards, shots fired in the above video

    S7300561.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,032
    Elkton, MD
    Great looking Shotty alucard0822, and good work!

    My only suggestion is to replace the light setup for something forend mounted (Surefire). The surefire is a little heavier but not by much.

    Currently you have to reacquire the ON/OFF on the light as you pump the action in order to turn the light ON/OFF. You wouldnt want to leave it on constantly, or have trouble manipulating it in stress/low light scenarios.

    Overall I give it a 9.5/10 :D

    OOPS, I just saw your update on the light. Sorry to hear that.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    Great looking Shotty alucard0822, and good work!

    My only suggestion is to replace the light setup for something forend mounted (Surefire). The surefire is a little heavier but not by much.

    Currently you have to reacquire the ON/OFF on the light as you pump the action in order to turn the light ON/OFF. You wouldnt want to leave it on constantly, or have trouble manipulating it in stress/low light scenarios.

    Overall I give it a 9.5/10 :D


    OOPS, I just saw your update on the light. Sorry to hear that.

    Thanks for the kind review, I like the surefire forends, but at $300, they are a bit rich for my blood and would have almost doubled what I spent on the build not factoring in the original $300 I spent on the gun itself. Perhaps one day on another build(hopefully an 1100-tac4:innocent0). I was thinking about using a wire and pressure pad with the Hellfighter, but being it would need a good bit of slack to work with the forend as it reciprocates, or a long wire that would easily tangle to mount on the pistol grip I opted aggainst it, and left it how it is, I slide my hand forward to bump the tailcap switch to toggle it, but have to basically leave it on or off while pumping it. The best thing is that it can attach or detach it simply and quickly enough just in case I need to use the light for something else, especially if I get out to hunt this year with it, and don't want to get fined for "spotlighting" where having a weapon mounted light on a gun in PA is bound to get you.

    And no big deal about the light, glad I caught it and fixed it now instead of when I really need it to work, nothing a couple set screws couldn't solve:D
     
    Last edited:

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,032
    Elkton, MD
    Thanks for the kind review, I like the surefire forends, but at $300, they are a bit rich for my blood and would have almost doubled what I spent on the build not factoring in the original $300 I spent on the gun itself. Perhaps one day on another build(hopefully an 1100-tac4:innocent0). I was thinking about using a wire and pressure pad with the Hellfighter, but being it would need a good bit of slack to work with the forend as it reciprocates, or a long wire that would easily tangle to mount on the pistol grip I opted aggainst it, and left it how it is, I slide my hand forward to bump the tailcap switch to toggle it, but have to basically leave it on or off while pumping it. The best thing is that it can attach or detach it simply and quickly enough just in case I need to use the light for something else, especially if I get out to hunt this year with it, and don't want to get fined for "spotlighting" where having a weapon mounted light on a gun in PA is bound to get you.

    And no big deal about the light, glad I caught it and fixed it now instead of when I really need it to work, nothing a couple set screws couldn't solve:D

    Anytime my friend :D Its good work!

    You know your stuff and your testing revealed exactly what needed to be worked on. Better while testing then when its needed in a defensive moment. ;)

    :party29:
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA


    Fixed it. Turns out that recoil from a 12ga combined with the knoxx stock allowing the action to move, ends up increasing the recoil on anything mounted on the action or barrel, flashlights included.



    Here are some slugs fired with the night sights only, all ended up on an 8.5X11 sheet of paper at 25 yards. The second video is with the flashlight(got dark enough couldn't see the target, busting clays on the 25yd berm in the dark is fun:)


     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,032
    Elkton, MD
    Fixed it. Turns out that recoil from a 12ga combined with the knoxx stock allowing the action to move, ends up increasing the recoil on anything mounted on the action or barrel, flashlights included.



    Here are some slugs fired with the night sights only, all ended up on an 8.5X11 sheet of paper at 25 yards. The second video is with the flashlight(got dark enough couldn't see the target, busting clays on the 25yd berm in the dark is fun:)




    :party29::)

    Good work my friend.
     

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