Will we ever see cheap C&R rifles again?

capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

shershot99 said:
Any chances of old world war 1 stores being around or did I miss that boat in the 80’s and 90’s? Would love more turn of the century stuff as well. Had to be millions upon millions of them originally. Has to still be stores around somewhere?

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Carcanos, Mosins, and really rough Mausers in Ethiopia I don't think much else, or at least I haven't seen it.

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capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

Mike OTDP said:
The First Golden Age of MILSURP was around 1950-1968. Truckloads of stuff, and you could order by mail. It sucked out a lot of the wartime arms stocks.

The Second Golden Age was 1987-~2010. It cleaned out the remaining European stocks of wartime arms, plus a lot of stuff from the former Warsaw Pact.

Now? Well, the problem is that there are a lot of surplus arms, but the rifles are select-fire. The pistols? Might be more importable. And there are reputedly a lot of German pistols captured by the Soviets that were squirreled away...the Soviets were pack-rats where it came to small arms. The big headache with those is that Russian stocks are not importable by fiat, and a lot of the other pistols were pocket pistols that don't make it through the ATF import point system.

That is mostly true. Except the Russians also have a lot of Mausers and Mosins too. Which also means so do the Ukrainians. I have spoken to buyer directly regarding warehouses in Ukraine and I have seen pics. There is a lot there.

The pistols is just annoying. PP, PPK, cz38 aka P39, 1934 & 1935 Beretta, Ruby, and more not importable. However C96/M1916, Lugers, P38, and High Power are all importable.

Everyone also always forgets about how much is already here. Those old timers with 1000+ firearms collections will be selling sooner than later or their families will be selling like John Wall. We are entering the Silver Age of Milsurps.

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Doco Overboard · Aug 28, 2020

JamesDong said:
She still has my number................ right?

That made me laugh! Love it. Best smile I had all day.

somd_mustangs · Aug 28, 2020

capt14k said:
... Which also means so do the Ukrainians. I have spoken to buyer directly regarding warehouses in Ukraine and I have seen pics. There is a lot there.

According to two collector friends that have close ties to Ukraine, and another that has been on scouting/buying trips there recently, a lot (most?) of the stuff has been looted and rooted during the "unrest". A bunch of P.38's came in from there in the 1990's / early 2000's, some really rare but mostly dipped and/or RC marked with the "X".

The dippy goop and import mark requirement really puts a hurt on the collector value. The X is just a kiss of value death. For those looking for shooter grades it could be a great thing though.

Mike OTDP · Aug 28, 2020

capt14k said:
The pistols is just annoying. PP, PPK, cz38 aka P39, 1934 & 1935 Beretta, Ruby, and more not importable. However C96/M1916, Lugers, P38, and High Power are all importable.

This is why I think we need to push ATF to change the regulations. No change to law is needed, merely a ruling that C&R firearms are inherently "sporting use" due to age.

somd_mustangs · Aug 28, 2020

And get rid of the need for those freaking import marks.

capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

somd_mustangs said:
According to two collector friends that have close ties to Ukraine, and another that has been on scouting/buying trips there recently, a lot (most?) of the stuff has been looted and rooted during the "unrest". A bunch of P.38's came in from there in the 1990's / early 2000's, some really rare but mostly dipped and/or RC marked with the "X".

The dippy goop and import mark requirement really puts a hurt on the collector value. The X is just a kiss of value death. For those looking for shooter grades it could be a great thing though.

Agreed there is nothing from Ukraine I would be interested in. One top of it Century insists on putting their giant billboard import mark because their ATF agent says it is necessary. It is not, but they don't want to cause any waves. As far as looted I'm sure some were, but there are warehouses well protected by not only the government, but organized crime.

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capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

Mike OTDP said:
This is why I think we need to push ATF to change the regulations. No change to law is needed, merely a ruling that C&R firearms are inherently "sporting use" due to age.

Agrees. Make the regulations for what they were meant for, preventing cheap Saturday night specials. Which is stupid in and of itself but let them have their bone.

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shershot99 · Aug 28, 2020

capt14k said:
Agrees. Make the regulations for what they were meant for, preventing cheap Saturday night specials. Which is stupid in and of itself but let them have their bone.

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That’s one thing I still don’t get. I thought any gun of a certain age, by law, is C&R. But that’s clearly not the case. The way I thought it was written, we should be getting all kinds of good stuff from Korea and Vietnam by now.

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capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

shershot99 said:
That’s one thing I still don’t get. I thought any gun of a certain age, by law, is C&R. But that’s clearly not the case. The way I thought it was written, we should be getting all kinds of good stuff from Korea and Vietnam by now.

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Yes anything 50 years of age or older is C&R. However import rules are completely different. Basically military has to be C&R but in original configuration. However handguns regardless of age or military collectible have to meet point system. Semi Auto rifles is a whole other thing.

Example of military semi auto is FN-49. Indonesian can be imported. They were semi auto not detachable mag. Most Belgian and Belgian Congo never will be because most were select fire and once full auto always full auto. The ones that got in are really a grey area. One's with detachable mags have even different rules and some are banned by EO and treaty like SVT.

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shershot99 · Aug 28, 2020

capt14k said:
Yes anything 50 years of age or older is C&R. However import rules are completely different. Basically military has to be C&R but in original configuration. However handguns regardless of age or military collectible have to meet point system. Semi Auto rifles is a whole other thing.

Example of military semi auto is FN-49. Indonesian can be imported. They were semi auto not detachable mag. Most Belgian and Belgian Congo never will be because most were select fire and once full auto always full auto. The ones that got in are really a grey area. One's with detachable mags have even different rules and some are banned by EO and treaty like SVT.

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Ugh. They should all be exempted. The whole pistol thing has my head spinning. For purposes of collecting, I am not big on “newer” semi-autos but it seems there are so many pistols not allowed due to that point system. What a joke.

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capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

shershot99 said:
Ugh. They should all be exempted. The whole pistol thing has my head spinning. For purposes of collecting, I am not big on “newer” semi-autos but it seems there are so many pistols not allowed due to that point system. What a joke.

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The good news is many of them found their way in before the point system was put in place.

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offthepaper · Aug 28, 2020

Capt14K

Great information.
Thanks for sharing.

capt14k · Aug 28, 2020

Here are some I recently purchased and I am in the process of importing. Much cheaper than what they cost here.

Hungarians are M.48 Infantry aka 91/30 1950, 1951, and 1952 dates.

The 1908 is a Uruguayan and it is a short rifle. All are matching except the Israeli but that was actually bought here (still cheap).

OLM-Medic · Aug 29, 2020

capt14k you mention purchases of mosins and sks, any idea when we will see these hit the market like we have seen the carcanos?

capt14k · Aug 29, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
capt14k you mention purchases of mosins and sks, any idea when we will see these hit the market like we have seen the carcanos?

No I don't but they came in at the same time so I would expect them to be working their way into the market now.

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shershot99 · Aug 29, 2020

capt14k said:
Here are some I recently purchased and I am in the process of importing. Much cheaper than what they cost here.

Hungarians are M.48 Infantry aka 91/30 1950, 1951, and 1952 dates.

The 1908 is a Uruguayan and it is a short rifle. All are matching except the Israeli but that was actually bought here (still cheap).

I am gonna need you to import a few Mausers for me at just above cost. Lol. Good stuff man!

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fpmst930 · Sep 23, 2020

How cheap can you get the 7.62 israeli mausers for?

tallen702 · Sep 24, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
capt14k you mention purchases of mosins and sks, any idea when we will see these hit the market like we have seen the carcanos?

I've seen some new imports of Mosins hit the market lately, prices are in the mid 200s for a wartime production Izzy round receiver and go up from there.

OLM-Medic · Sep 24, 2020

tallen702 said:
I've seen some new imports of Mosins hit the market lately, prices are in the mid 200s for a wartime production Izzy round receiver and go up from there.

yeah I've seen em too. If they were carbines I would be more interested.

Will we ever see cheap C&R rifles again?

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