JoeyBimmer
Active Member
"We all have, you know its called a desk pop. Listen to me, let me make this real clear, we honor the flag, and you crap on it when you don't shoot your gun at the office."
Hap Baker & Mosin Nagant
- Thread starter JoeyBimmer
- Start date
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"We all have, you know its called a desk pop. Listen to me, let me make this real clear, we honor the flag, and you crap on it when you don't shoot your gun at the office."
GuitarmanNick
Ultimate Member
I suggest a Caldwell recoil pad for your shoulder when shooting any Mosin from a bench. I can put 50 rounds downrange with no discomfort when using it.
Remember that these guns were meant to be fired from a standing position which is much less punishing than when shooting from a bench.
Remember that these guns were meant to be fired from a standing position which is much less punishing than when shooting from a bench.
JoeyBimmer
Active Member
I have something like this,
https://www.amazon.com/Kingwolfox-Buttstock-Shotgun-Shoulder-Protector/dp/B07CTC8BJW#ace-g2342880709
and before this even shooting the thing standing up would do a number on me after a few rounds.
With the above item its almost a sweetheart to shoot. I know I can do 100 or more rounds in a day without issue.
Darkemp
Ultimate Member
Looks like the old Limbsaver slip on with another name. They work well for Mosins and Mausers- K98’s, 1903’s, 1917’s, various Enfields will all give your shoulder a beating as well.
JoeyBimmer
Active Member
worth its weight in gold if you want to shoot them for more then one clipazine.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Since when?
The rules do have a fairly slow rate, but when I joined I asked about practicing for events with fairly rapid fire, and was told that it was OK, as long as it was not mag dumps
And they do have things like PA Steel matches.
Only problem I had with rate of fire was at AGC many years ago. Rule was 1 second per round. I was on the pistol range. RO came over from rifle range to tell me I was shooting too fast. The funny thing was, I was running my timer and my spilts were 1.1 - 1.2 seconds per round.
Oh well, but last time I was a member of AGC. It was not worth the trouble.
I think the SLCFSA rule is similar to the AGC; shott slow enough to be able to control your shots. Mag dumps just seem wasteful to me anyway
When we first joined SLCFSA two years ago, they did indeed have a two second rule. My father joined early this year, just before the End of Fun from china. I tagged along with him in the new member orientation (moral support...and a refresher for me couldn't hurt, right?
). They said that the rate of fire had to be controlled, with all bullets hitting the impact area...not a specific time between shots. So, as long as you can keep them going where they are supposed to, you can empty your wallet as fast as you want (except no full auto at SLCFSA (well...without extra special permission), and only on specified events at AGC).As to the thread topic...singling out Mosins over one incident seems kind of dumb. What in the hell is this,
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Wasteful? Yes.
Fun? YES.
OK, that is what I recall. I had a guy call me out when I was shooting at AR. I pointed out that every shot was a USPSA A zone hit. He didn't say anything else.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
As to the thread topic...singling out Mosins over one incident seems kind of dumb. What in the hell is this,RussiaMaryland?
It may be due to their insurers requirements.
But I have seen it in other areas, one incident is used to justify certain rules affecting everyone.
JoeyBimmer
Active Member
that is what I do not understand about 'rapid fire' a lot of folk can shoot significantly quicker then 1 round a second and still put them quite precise on target. I know it is because some dummies will rapid fire, miss, or cause damage and harm. There has to be an in-between where RO's allow competent shooters to do this.
I am not even that good of a shot, but I know with my XD I can 'mag dump' and put everything in a targets zero in full control at 7 yards.
AGC Rules:
C.General Range Safety Rules
20.Semi-automatic strings may be fired on any range at a rate that allows the aiming and control of each shot. All shots fired must strike within the designated Impact Area for the shooter’s position. (C2 –FIRST WARNING)
28.Fully automatic fire is onlypermitted as detailed in Chapter XII of the Policies & Proceduresmanual f ound here: www.agcrange.org(C3)
JB
C.General Range Safety Rules
20.Semi-automatic strings may be fired on any range at a rate that allows the aiming and control of each shot. All shots fired must strike within the designated Impact Area for the shooter’s position. (C2 –FIRST WARNING)
28.Fully automatic fire is onlypermitted as detailed in Chapter XII of the Policies & Proceduresmanual f ound here: www.agcrange.org(C3)
JB
gpfan
Active Member
I can confirm, first hand, that there was an incident a few years ago where a guy did double feed his Mosin and got seriously injured.
He was in the far left lane and I was in one of the far right lanes near the opening by the pistol range. I remember there was an unusually loud report as might be with someone shooting a .308 with muzzle break.
I looked down the line to see a guy standing up, distressed, holding his hand, and blood everywhere on the floor and wall. His girlfriend ran to get paper towels as the RO's called cease fire, called for an ambulance, and tended to him until the ambulance arrived.
The EMT's treated him in the ambulance for a period and the RO's maintained cease fire while they were there.
Once the ambulance left the RO's called the range hot but everyone was so shaken up by the accident not one person went back to their gun on the line.
The RO's then called cease fire and a cold range for folks to change their targets and get their heads back in order.
In talking with the RO's, the gentleman was trying to extract a live round, whether perceived misfire or not fully in battery is not known, but there was a live round in the chamber while he was messing with it. Either in frustration or not paying attention, he pulled back fully and then slammed the bolt home which pulled another round from the magazine and pushed it into the primer of the live round. Pointy bullet into live primer is not a good combination. The live round in the chamber went boom and violently pushed the bolt back full-force and the forward live round grenaded. Whether the impact of the bolt or the live round grenading caused the gentleman's injuries to his hand, I don't know.
I went over to look at the carnage after the ambulance took him away and from what I remember the receiver was a mess as in mangled, the stock was broken, and there was blood everywhere. Hard to walk near that lane without stepping in blood.
The next week I went back and there was the sign on the door stating Mosin's were to be single fed from now on.
I spoke with the RO's and the guy was in the Naval Academy and there with his girlfriend. The hospital was not able to save his thumb. I'm not sure about the rest of his hand, though.
This apparently was not the 1st time over the years they've had folks double feed Mosins at Hap Baker. The RO's mentioned at least 2 other times while they were employed there.
Those are the FIRST hand facts as I remember them.
Whether the guy got distracted while trying to clear the live round from the chamber or if he was frustrated with the situation I believe the incident could have been avoided if he simply took his time and worked things through methodically. I don't think it's an inherent defect of the gun but rather, as they say, the loose nut behind it that causes these problems. But that's my opinion.
This incident has stuck in my head and forces me to slow down every time I have a malfunction in any of my firearms.
I went to Hap for the first and only time a month or so back, I kept things slow on the pistol range overall but on my last magazine before I wrapped up for the day I was definitely pushing my luck. I’ll just say I counted “1,2” in my head pretty quickly as I worked through a 15 rd mag. I did not get chewed out so I imagine it’s like the speed limit. Still a slightly disappointing experience since anywhere else I can practice quickly shooting at least a few at a time (always controlled and consistent, never a mag dump).
The problem of 91/30's was well known in the '70's through the '90's. Many bring back rifles from Vietnam ( I had a couple) had rough bores. In the middle eighties thru the '90's some unscrupulous wholesale houses were vat cleaning MN's to make them look better, cutting them down, threading the barrel and selling them as shooters.
This wasn't a problem until the Chech ammunition started to be imported. Chech ammo had a heavy coat of lacquer which preserved them very well. When you combined them with rough chambers, it was an accident waiting to happen. This stuff was so bad, if you shot a 20 round box one after another in a pristine chamber, it would still start sticking as the rifle heated up.
When this happens, usually you will rip the rim off trying to get it out with the bolt. The next thing some people did was unknowingly allow the bolt to go back over the magazine interrupter. Then they would ram the bolt home not noticing that it had picked up another round.
I have seen two people injured in this manner. One has a scar on his underarm with about 100 stitches in it. The other had less damage but it was across his hand and cut some nerves. In both cases, the round acting as firing pin did not detonate. The gas coming out of the receiver is what did them in as the bullet plugged the barrel and the gas took the path of least resistance. The case of the one I saw was split lengthwise and didn't appear to have fragmented at all. The bolts stayed in both guns and they probably would have functioned again after cleaning.
This risk has been mitigated by the surplus market drying up. Just remember if you buy surplus 7.62x54 ammo and it comes in a green or blue box of twenty, it will be lacquer coated. Those of you shooting PP or even Russian surplus, shouldn't have any problems.
This wasn't a problem until the Chech ammunition started to be imported. Chech ammo had a heavy coat of lacquer which preserved them very well. When you combined them with rough chambers, it was an accident waiting to happen. This stuff was so bad, if you shot a 20 round box one after another in a pristine chamber, it would still start sticking as the rifle heated up.
When this happens, usually you will rip the rim off trying to get it out with the bolt. The next thing some people did was unknowingly allow the bolt to go back over the magazine interrupter. Then they would ram the bolt home not noticing that it had picked up another round.
I have seen two people injured in this manner. One has a scar on his underarm with about 100 stitches in it. The other had less damage but it was across his hand and cut some nerves. In both cases, the round acting as firing pin did not detonate. The gas coming out of the receiver is what did them in as the bullet plugged the barrel and the gas took the path of least resistance. The case of the one I saw was split lengthwise and didn't appear to have fragmented at all. The bolts stayed in both guns and they probably would have functioned again after cleaning.
This risk has been mitigated by the surplus market drying up. Just remember if you buy surplus 7.62x54 ammo and it comes in a green or blue box of twenty, it will be lacquer coated. Those of you shooting PP or even Russian surplus, shouldn't have any problems.
JoeyBimmer
Active Member
I really appreciate you sharing. I call BS on previous double feeds, and someone slamming one round into the primer of another is not a weapons issue, that is a person issue. I could see if you slammed a Mosin hard enough how it might slide a round up to feed into the chamber, maybe that is what happened to that Sailor? He should have dropped the mag from the bottom and then began work on the riffle, with assistance if he couldn't get it.
I guess I will reach out to whoever is in governmental control of Hap Baker and see if they would kindly reconsider. I know until the single feed rule goes away I am not taking my Mosin there, as I do not enjoy single feeding it, personally.
JoeyBimmer
Active Member
Thank you for sharing this, I would guess this is the 'double feed' everyone is citing for the MN.
I was shooting Russian surplus, but these days people want like 275 for a 440 spam can, so no go on that until things cool down.
fpmst930
Active Member
Yup it's on the front board. Next to the guy with the cash register.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Single feeding will not stop this from happening. And what happened is not specific to Mosins. Any rifle that does not extract a live round could have this happen.
Generally when bench shooting I single load.
Even with semi auto rifles.
If there’s an ammo / rifle problem I can rapidly detect what’s going on, malfunction cause, clear the breech, Examine brass etc then carry on.
I already know the magazine works, extraction occurs as expected and everything is going as planned.
After the shot is plotted I can then inspect brass, make sight corrections log info and all that happy horse&$”t.
Even with semi auto rifles.
If there’s an ammo / rifle problem I can rapidly detect what’s going on, malfunction cause, clear the breech, Examine brass etc then carry on.
I already know the magazine works, extraction occurs as expected and everything is going as planned.
After the shot is plotted I can then inspect brass, make sight corrections log info and all that happy horse&$”t.
