Call for Black Powder Firearm Regulation After Suicide

gprimr1 said:

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Taking guns away won't stop suicides.

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Exactly. Japan has a suicide rate more than double the US even though they banned all guns years ago.

This is a preposterous, sad attempt at misdirection if I've ever seen one.

The way I look at it, this kid's parents failed him. As did his school, his friends, etc. But most specifically, his parents. When someone considers ending their life, there are a lot of warning signs you can see. And there should have been some sort of intervention, talking, to figure out what's going on in this kid's life. From someone who's been on both sides of that coin, there's always something that can be done. Granted, sometimes it's inevitable - they feel the only way out of whatever situation they're in is the easy way out, and they'll do it regardless of any intervention.

Secondly, I'd like to point out his father's statement:

Andy Eisner said:

"I never showed him how to load that and he always kept the weapon at my house and kept the gunpowder at her house so they were never at the same place at the same time."

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This man allowed his child (yes child, because a 13/14 year old is just that - a child) to have, own, and use a firearm, admittedly with ZERO training whatsoever. I liken this to buying your 13 year old an offroad pickup for the farm without teaching them how to drive and just letting them go at it. It's irresponsible, it's dangerous to them and anyone around them, and it's ludicrous to place blame anywhere but with his parents, let alone a firearm.

Now, if this is found to be an AD/ND, I think there should absolutely be charges filed against the father/parents for allowing him to have this firearm with zero training or advice. Suicide sucks, and it hurts to be close to a victime or the family thereof, but I'm fairly certain ANY firearm in a home has to be locked and inaccessible to anyone under the age of 18 (someone mentioned the Hunter's Safety exception). If this is true, I hate to put mourning people through a bad time, but there should be charges filed. They failed to comply with the law, failed to lock up a firearm and render it inaccessible to a child. The child died as a result. Yes, he could have killed himself any other way, but he chose his rifle, which was accessible due to their failure to comply. I think their call for regulations should be dismissed post-haste and charges filed, or at the VERY least a citation issued, for their contribution to his death.

If I sound calloused, oh well. The kid died. Yes, it's sad. Yes, I'm sure the family is hurting. But there should be repurcussions for them (if, in fact, they did violate the law by leaving the firearm accessible to the child), and not the firearms industry.

And then you find out the other side of the story - I spoke with someone who apparently knew the family and tried to help the kid. Apparently one parent was an alcoholic and the other was a drug addict. But of course, neither of those had anything to do with the kid's death or the shitty parenting.

This makes me rage.

Half-cocked said:

Sadly, too many people believe that bad things happen solely because there wasn't a law, specifically written, to prevent each and every specific tragedy in life.

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Here's the reply I posted after reading the article. I agree with the above;

Sorry for your loss Mr Eisner, but the suggestion of more laws is just the wrong way of looking at this. Your son was given a gun but no gun education. The blackpowder wasn't even kept with the gun. Criminals don't use blackpowder weapons to commit crimes! I suggest that when you get over your grief, look at the data. Take a evidence-based approach to this. Where's the data that supports the need for regulation of black powder weapons? Many things in this world are lethal but are not nor cannot be regulated. You may feel guilt over your failure but don't translate that into some social quest for redemption by forcing laws that will not have any effect other than to make you feel better. Only foolish people feel that anything and everything can be fixed by laws and legislation

I realize that this may not do much, but I just can't sit by and watch something like this happen without doing/saying something. Hopefully, the concept of 'Josua's Law' doesn't take hold and just quietly disappears.....

"Now, if this is found to be an AD/ND, I think there should absolutely be charges filed against the father/parents for allowing him to have this firearm with zero training or advice."

Not directed at scrovak,just using this part (which I agree 100% with).What (if any)charges could be filed against the "best friend" that purchased and gave the boy the muzzleloader?

SRD said:

"Now, if this is found to be an AD/ND, I think there should absolutely be charges filed against the father/parents for allowing him to have this firearm with zero training or advice."

Not directed at scrovak,just using this part (which I agree 100% with).What (if any)charges could be filed against the "best friend" that purchased and gave the boy the muzzleloader?

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IANAL, but why would any charges be possible? Parent(s) bear the responsibility for allowing the gift to take place and possession to occur by their child until said child reaches the age of emancipation or triggers an emancipation event.

SRD said:

Not directed at scrovak,just using this part (which I agree 100% with).What (if any)charges could be filed against the "best friend" that purchased and gave the boy the muzzleloader?

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I do believe he could be charged with a straw purchase

tailboardtech said:

I do believe he could be charged with a straw purchase

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no such thing w/ muzzle loader.. only requirements that you are 18+

when is the last time you bought one... did they ask for id? or fill out a form and give them any other information besides how you want to pay for it.. cash, check, visa or mastercard..

sgt23preston said:

And lets put safety nets under all bridges...

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I think SF is trying to do this.

lx1x said:

no such thing w/ muzzle loader.. only requirements that you are 18+

when is the last time you bought one... did they ask for id? or fill out a form and give them any other information besides how you want to pay for it.. cash, check, visa or mastercard..

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Be honest I never have purchased a BP I inherited my grandfathers when he kicked it... Running away now since I was wrong

If they can't blame the black powder gun, the parents will have to look inward for the cause of their child's suicide. All death is sad, that of a child especially so. I would be looking for any excuse, no matter how illogical or poorly thought out, to keep me from that nightmare.

I'm sorry for their loss but these stories always remind me of this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/fun-toy-banned-because-of-three-stupid-dead-kids,290/

I thought about this last night and a couple things with the story seem fishy.

1. The muzzle loader was bought for the kid and it was for taking to civil war renacting, so they had powder for it, but did they have shot for it? I would think that since they renact by shooting at each other with blanks (powder no shot) that having shot at the events would be a big no no.

2. I know that it can be done, but it can't be real easy to shoot yourself with a rifle and do a good job of it.

3. Dad going way off tangent on worry about sales of these weapons, even though the kid didn't buy one. Seems kinda like he his deflecting attention of the event.

My $ 0.02, and yes I am not fluent in BP, Muzzle loaders terms.

Indiana Jones said:

Yea, cause this law coulda saved Joshua... Idiot anti gun retards.

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Anti gun idiots will use any excuse to make a new gun law.

ThatIsAFact said:

b) Antique firearm. -- "Antique firearm" means:

(1) a firearm, including a firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar ignition system, manufactured before 1899; OR

(2) a replica of a firearm described in item (1) of this subsection that:

(i) is not designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; OR

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
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But a muzzleloader is not a regulated firearm, because it is an "antique" as defined above, and "antique" firearms are explicitly excluded from the state requirements that govern transfer of handguns and other regulated weapons.

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While I believe your the distinction you are making between "black powder" vs. "muzzleloaders" is accurate, I have a different, and perhaps incorrect, interpretation on what is an antique according to Maryland law.

Note that it states it includes the described ignition systems (not exclusive) AND be built before 1899 or be a replica of the above. A T/C Omega, while it contains the inclusive ignition system, it was not manufactured before 1899 nor a replica of a pre-1899 model. A replica being defined by Webster's as "a copy exact in all details". Therefore it isn't considered an antique. Ergo, not all muzzleloaders fall under the state law of antiques.

According to the Dept of Public Safety, they side with your interpretation:

[Q] Is a black powder gun considered a firearm?
[A] No, per federal law statutes, this type of firearm is considered an antique and does not qualify under the regulated firearm guidelines.
http://www.mdgunsafety.com/mspfaq.htm

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I think a strong argument could be made that modern muzzleloaders should be treated as any other rifle or handgun, whichever the case may be.

Indiana Jones said:

Yea, cause this law coulda saved Joshua... Idiot anti gun retards.

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The anti's know it will not save anyone. They know things like this can be used as an excuse to get more gun laws on the books. They package it as the noble cause of doing it for Joshua as a means to protect the next Joshua. They know it is hog wash as we do. But if they can use it to get yet another gun law on the books, they will.

This subject has been talked about on a couple other gun forums also. My condolences to the family but dad needs a reality check. The gun didn't kill the kid, the kid killed himself. If the kid wanted to do himself in and didn't have access to the gun he would have found some way. The BP weapon happened to be what he chose. He could have just as easily gone about 10 miles up the road and jumped of the "King and Queen Seat" in the State park. All being said; remember..."You can't fix stupid."

Fox Mike said:

This subject has been talked about on a couple other gun forums also. My condolences to the family but dad needs a reality check. The gun didn't kill the kid, the kid killed himself. If the kid wanted to do himself in and didn't have access to the gun he would have found some way. The BP weapon happened to be what he chose. He could have just as easily gone about 10 miles up the road and jumped of the "King and Queen Seat" in the State park. All being said; remember..."You can't fix stupid."

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Not knowing the details of what happen other then there was no note. Did he kill himself? Or did he think the gun was not loaded and was playing around? Was it an accident and it just looks like he killed himself? Did he drop the gun and it went off?

scrovak said:

And then you find out the other side of the story - I spoke with someone who apparently knew the family and tried to help the kid. Apparently one parent was an alcoholic and the other was a drug addict. But of course, neither of those had anything to do with the kid's death or the shitty parenting.

This makes me rage.

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This needs to be looked into before placing any credibility into what the father is saying..........

Ted Frank's law:

My rule of thumb is a strong presumption that any law named after a victim is poor public policy enacted by legislators who confuse voting against a law with voting against an innocent person...

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http://www.pointoflaw.com/archives/2011/01/jared-lee-lough.php