.38 Special Wadcutters

[StickShaker]

I had a chance to check out some loads yesterday at the Dottrio event. First time shooting at an indoor range and Heritage Training Center has likely spoiled me for life. The complex looks like something that Trump would build.

Not sure what's going on with my Security Six but it seems to be super picky about ammo. It's basically still a new gun with probably less than 500 rounds through it since 1975. I have never slugged the barrel and I'm starting to think it may be slightly oversize.

All of the shots are at 50ft with my wrists supported on a pad. Shot slightly over 100 rounds with 5 different bullets and a couple of different loads and powders. Basically everything sucked with bad groups and unexplained flyers except for the factory Remington HBWC's. I was kinda happy with my hand loaded Hornady HBWC's but I think they could be better.

Pics to follow...

 

[StickShaker]

Inexpensive Winchester and Blazer FMJ ammo. One shot on each missed the 8.5 X 11 paper. A few months ago I also shot some self defense HP ammo from a rest with the same sorry results.

 

[StickShaker]

Two groups of current production factory Remington HBWC's. The first was shot at the start of the session when my eyes were working properly. Target on the right was shot at the end and my vision was pretty blurry at that point. I guess the planets must have been in alignment.

 

[StickShaker]

Hand loads with 147g Hornady HBWC and 2.5 grains of Clays. Right target same except 2.2 grains of Clays. The flyers are puzzling. The main difference between the Remington and Hornady bullets is the diameter. Remington is .360 and Hornady is .358

 

[StickShaker]

The first bullets that I bought were the 158g Hornady semi wad cutters which are also extruded. The smallest quantity was 300 and no matter what load or powder I can't get them to work. I tried an experiment and seated the bullet base the same depth as the wad cutters with a wad cutter powder charge to see if I could get more accuracy out of them. I thought they would be a hotter load because they have a flat base without the cavity but they shot the softest of any load so far. They are .075 longer than the HBWC's so it's a goofy looking cartridge with .075 sticking out of the front.

Other than the flyers they grouped much better. The target on the right is normally what I expect from this bullet when seated to the proper depth.

 

[EKing]

The main difference between the Remington and Hornady bullets is the diameter. Remington is .360

.360? That's a big bullet for the 38 Special. Was it spitting lead from barrel/cylinder gap?

 

[StickShaker]

.360? That's a big bullet for the 38 Special. Was it spitting lead from barrel/cylinder gap?

Not that I noticed. The small diameter in the front part of the cylinder is .359 and I just measured the entrance of the forcing cone when I saw your question and it's .375

 

[byf43]

Not sure what's going on with my Security Six but it seems to be super picky about ammo. It's basically still a new gun with probably less than 500 rounds through it since 1975. I have never slugged the barrel and I'm starting to think it may be slightly oversize.

Just a couple of observations.

First, I know a couple of guys that have owned Ruger(s) from that era, and their barrel(s) were oversize.

One had a Super Blackhawk in .44 magnum, and instead of the "standard" .4295 - .430, his barrel mic'd at .434".
His loaded rounds were basically playing pinball down the barrel, before going 'somewhere' downrange.

Another, had a Redhawk, with the same problem.


Historically, I've NEVER been able to get soft, "swaged" boolits to shoot, worth a darn.
They're (to me!) inaccurate and are a PITA to clean up, after a shooting session.

 

[StickShaker]

Just a couple of observations.

First, I know a couple of guys that have owned Ruger(s) from that era, and their barrel(s) were oversize.

One had a Super Blackhawk in .44 magnum, and instead of the "standard" .4295 - .430, his barrel mic'd at .434".
His loaded rounds were basically playing pinball down the barrel, before going 'somewhere' downrange.

Another, had a Redhawk, with the same problem.


Historically, I've NEVER been able to get soft, "swaged" boolits to shoot, worth a darn.
They're (to me!) inaccurate and are a PITA to clean up, after a shooting session.

Thanks for the input! Guess I need to measure the barrel. We use a lot of Cerro Alloy at work. I'm wondering if I should use that or try pushing a bullet down the barrel? Never slugged a barrel but I'm not afraid to try.

 

[jimbobborg]

You need to measure two things. Check the mouths at the front of the cylinder. Ruger is somewhat famous for being random there. Then slug the barrel.

 

[StickShaker]

You need to measure two things. Check the mouths at the front of the cylinder. Ruger is somewhat famous for being random there. Then slug the barrel.

I checked the cylinder with gauge pins and they consistently measured .359 on all six. Reading up on slugging.

 

[StickShaker]

Just slugged the barrel but it's late and didn't measure it yet because it has an odd number of grooves. Unfortunately the slug got tighter down where the barrel is threaded into the frame.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The bbl/ throat sizing issues are usually .44 and .45 specific. (.41's have a reputation for being very consistant. Limited to my Old and New, and another New, they are all tackdrivers.)

I've tested a buncha Security/ Service/ Speed Sixes. They all ranged from average for quality revolvers to tackdrivers, never seen one group as badly as you posted. Until the groups with R-P HBWC's, my first thought was operator error.

From you description of the bbl slugging, it sounds as if you located the problem. - the bbl is squeezed in where threaded into frame. ( This has a catchy name, but it escapes me as I tap this entry.) This is due to tolerence stack of frame internal dia being minimum, and bbl shank dia being maximum.

This can be fixed. There are two primary aproaches: Taylor Throating, and lapping, usually Fire Lapping.

Taylor Throating involves modifying the leade to lengthen it at very shallow angle. While intended for other attributes, it also clears up tightness thru bbl shank. The process was invented by Jim Taylor, and the primary apostle of it is Jim Stroth, master Gunsmith, and proprietor of Alpha Precision.

Many people have sucuessfully used Fire Lapping for this condition, including my #1 shooting and handloading partner. But personally this gives me the shudders just thinking about it. This is one of those instances where if a little is good, more is definitely NOT better. This is harsh upon the bbl throat. Doing more than the minimum to correct tightness, will significantly errode the throat, ie reduce accurate life of the bbl.

If I knew of gunsmith within a one day round trip experienced in Taylor Throating, I would point you there. ( If anyone knows of one, please let me know.) Otherwise modern day shipping to send it to Georgia is a factor. If you were to have some other work, like say trigger tuning, done by Alpha, then the shipping can better be justified.

 

[StickShaker]

The bbl/ throat sizing issues are usually....

Thank you very much for the detailed write-up. I mentioned this in another thread but just by chance the only ammo that I ever shot in this gun were HBWC reloads from a small gun shop that is no longer around. Always plinking cans and whatnot with the same group of friends over the years and I thought this gun was very accurate.

Now that I'm reloading and trying to work up loads this is all coming to light. I too was thinking that my shooting abilities took an extreme dump. A few months ago I did this same test without any full wadcutters and the targets looked more like a shotgun pattern. To make matters worst, I also shot my new Beretta 92 from a rest on the same day and was seeing shotgun patterns from it as well. These two are my only handguns. My son shot the Beretta this past weekend also with shotgun results but both of us shot his 1911 offhand very well. My Beretta and his 1911 are the only center fire semi's I have ever shot so I'm happy to see that I can still shoot but I also need to figure out why the Beretta is spraying bullets.

 

[John from MD]

I have successfully made laps for several revolvers that were pinched where the barrel screwed into the frame. I used cerrosafe and fine non imbedding lapping compounds sold by Brownells. I used a 'T' handle from a Lewis lead remover and a bore brush for the lap base. I put paper towel material around the bottom of the brush leaving about 1/2 inch of brush out and pushed it in the barrel until even with the forcing cone mouth. I then poured the cerrosafe in until level with the forcing cone.

This takes time and you have to make new laps for harder steel guns. (blackpowder revolvers are easier). You also have to measure periodically with a cerrosafe slug to see how you are progressing.

Good luck.

 

[StickShaker]

I have successfully made laps for several revolvers that were pinched where the barrel screwed into the frame.

I like your idea but confused about a few things. Do you cut the bristles off and just use the twisty part to hold it inside of the cast Cerro? Pouring Cerro to fill the forcing cone. Is that for a stop lip so the slug doesn't go back into the barrel too far? Non imbedding lapping compound. What is the difference between that and a compound that embeddes? Seems like I would want it to embed? Having a hard time spelling that word.

I have a fair amount of precision machining/grinding/lapping experience and I think I can do this without messing up, or at least know when to stop.

The Lewis lead remover looks like a handy tool, just looked it up.

 

[John from MD]

I like your idea but confused about a few things. Do you cut the bristles off and just use the twisty part to hold it inside of the cast Cerro?

No, just leave them there, the cast pours around them.


Pouring Cerro to fill the forcing cone. Is that for a stop lip so the slug doesn't go back into the barrel too far?

The paper wrapped on the lower part of the brush keeps the cerrosafe from flowing into the barrel. You actually don' t want to pour as far as the forcing cone with the cerro or the diameter will be too great. You want the lap to be the same size as the bulge in the threaded area of the barrel. Just so you know, you are pouring the cerrosafe in to the rear part of the barrel.

Non imbedding lapping compound. What is the difference between that and a compound that embeddes? Seems like I would want it to embed? Having a hard time spelling that word.

It does not bite into the metal and leave pieces to continue to wear after you are done. Usually these types use silicone carbide and oil.

I have a fair amount of precision machining/grinding/lapping experience and I think I can do this without messing up, or at least know when to stop.

The Lewis lead remover looks like a handy tool, just looked it up.

I answered your questions above.

If you are a machinist, this should be easy as you have the measuring tools available. Just don't lap too long without measuring. After the first few measurements, you will be able to tell how much metal you are removing and can adjust from there. Make a new lap as needed.

 

[StickShaker]

I answered your questions above.

If you are a machinist, this should be easy as you have the measuring tools available. Just don't lap too long without measuring. After the first few measurements, you will be able to tell how much metal you are removing and can adjust from there. Make a new lap as needed.

Thanks John, I understood about pouring the Cerro from the rear. I was thinking that you made the slug deep enough to take care of the bulge but also used the cone as a stop for the slug. So you would put the handle down the bore from the muzzle and screw it into the slug which would be fed in from the cylinder space.

Understand about the compound. I was thinking embedding into the slug and not the barrel.

 

[John from MD]

Now you have it. Once you pour the slug, you can spray some oil in both ends and work it until it moves freely. Then push it out the back and add some lapping compound. Not too much at first. Align the slug with the rifling and pull into the barrel. You are only working about a 1/2 inch area so there is not much movement.

I secure my frames in rubber protected jaws of a big vice. The T handle makes it very controllable for moving the lap back and forth. Be careful with s tainless as it is softer than carbon steel. ( not as soft as the stuff Pietta uses for their revolvers)

 

[StickShaker]

Looking at compounds on the Brownells site. Is it important to mark the slug and only use it with the same clocking as cast?