9mm Versus The 45ACP (AmmoLand)

[BillH]

Short article along with a link to a YouTube video.

For full article at AmmoLand click here.

 

[steves1911]

Its been said thousands of times a 9mm might expand but a 45 will never shrink.

 

[Dogabutila]

I picked 9mm. Why?

1) I have tiny kid hands.
2) .45 means either less rounds or larger frame.
3) #1 means it's really just less rounds.
4) Statistically, 1/2 of the people you need to shoot at will stop and run with 1 shot, no matter what caliber you use
5) The other 1/2 is very statistically likely to take more then 2 no matter what handgun caliber you use.
6) Statistically I need 2.3 - 2.8 (3 either way) hits before the other guy stops.
7) Square range accuracy goes to shit in a situation where you actually have to shoot.
8) If I can guarantee a 50% hit ratio then I would want at least 6 rounds or 5+1 for the guy.
9) I can't actually guarantee a 50% hit ratio.
10) What if there are 2 (or more) guys?

 

[Safetech]

I CC a compact 9mm with a 10 rd mag. (And a 17 rd in my pocket)

My 1911 came with standard 8 rd mag(s). But they were plagued with problems - so much so, that if I have to depend on them to defend myself, I'd be better off THROWING them at the BG! So I picked up a few CM 10 rd extended mags for it. They do take away from the beauty that is the 1911. But carrying in not a "beauty contest". And those extra two rounds give me a little extra peace of mind, just in case.

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

Personally I like what Masaad Ayoob has quoted in an article about the 1911:


"The bolt-action 1903 Springfield and 1917 Enfield .30/06 battle rifles had proven themselves splendidly rugged and accurate when sniping at enemy soldiers across the battlefield. But, when the enemy was right there in the trenches with you, ready to spear you with the blood-stained bayonet of his Mauser, these long, heavy rifles that needed a four-step process to hand-cycle another cartridge into the firing chamber were not the optimum defensive tools. The 1911 pistol, on the other hand, proved to be in its element there. Eight quick flicks of the index finger unleashed eight heavy 230-grain bullets, almost half an inch in diameter and traveling some 830 feet per second. At close range, when a single .45 slug struck the enemy in the wishbone, he tended to be immediately rendered hors de combat. To hell with bayoneted rifles, said the doughboys; this Colt .45 automatic was the ticket to getting out of the trenches alive once the enemy hordes had flowed into those trenches with you.


Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die. When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the German who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a “legendary manstopper,” and the long-standing American conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it

Then came WWII. The .45 automatic was the standard military weapon then as well. Used heavily in both theaters of the war, it was particularly valued in the Pacific, where Japanese sappers tended to infiltrate through the wires and be on top of the Yank soldier with knife in hand when the American woke up to deal with it. And the legend of the .45 as the “one shot, one kill” weapon was reinforced. It did not hurt that reputation that the average target in the Pacific was a rice-fed, half-starved biped who weighed about 130 pounds.

Then came Korea, and then Vietnam. Nothing happened to change the image of the .45 automatic as a deadly manstopper. In the mid-1980s, several trends converged upon the one firearm that had served the American military the longest. NATO was pushing the USA for complete compatibility in small arms ammo, and every other nation carried 9mm pistols. Except for target pistols for the pistol teams, the US government had not purchased new 1911s since before the Korean War, and the old guns were getting pretty clapped out. Finally, it is said, the Pentagon wanted cruise missiles in Italy and Italy wanted a lucrative US military contract in return. In any case, it was at that time that the United States armed services adopted the Italian Beretta Model 92F, caliber 9mm, as the official US service handgun that would be designated the M9 and would replace the 1911.

Fast forward to the present. When the War Against Terrorism went into the caves of Afghanistan, pistols became the weapons of choice for soldiers working on point in very close quarters. It became apparent that the 9mm with full metal jacket Geneva Convention ammo was as impotent as it was in WWI, with Al-Queda fanatics soaking up several rounds before they gave up the ghost. Those Yanks fortunate enough to have .45s—Army Delta Force, who purchase their own 1911s out of a stipend provided, and all the Special Operations Command elite who have access to the HK SOCOM pistol in that caliber—found that one or two full metal jacket .45 hardball rounds were all it took to drop a terrorist in his tracks. The call went out again: “We need .45s.”


What goes around comes around. Santayana was right. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

My take is if you need hi capacity to get the job done - then you need to improve on your pistol skills. Most defensive pistol sitituation happen at close range anyways. You should not need that many rounds to get the job done.

 

[SCARCQB]

The 9 vs 45 has been around since the days of the Philippine Insurection. Moro Jihad dudes were reported to have been able to soak up multiple rounds of 38 ( 9mm) cal slugs before going down. The 45 cal revolver was re-issued and was totally effective.

somewhat true...but hyped up.The same " juramentado" or" amok" dudes were also soaking up 45 cal rounds and worse.. Rifle rounds from the Krag.

How? they figured out a way to slow down blood loss after sustaining an injury.These guys underwent a lot of preparation before going " amok". Tourniquets made them numb and slowed down the process of going into shock. that was enough time to do damage.

Candidates, known as mag-sabil, "who endure the fangs of death," were selected from fanatical Muslim youth inspired to martyrdom by the teaching of Imams. Parents were consulted before the young men were permitted by the sultan to undergo training and preparation for Parang-sabil (the path to Paradise). After an oath taken, hand on the Qur'an, the chosen took a ritual bath, all body hair was shaved, and the eyebrows trimmed to resemble "a moon two days old." A strong band was wrapped firmly around the waist, and cords wrapped tightly around the genitals, ankles, knees, upper thighs, wrists, elbows, and shoulders, restricting blood flow and preventing the mag-sabil from losing too much blood from injury before accomplishing his gruesome task. Clad in white robe and turban, the chosen youth would polish and sharpen his weapons before action.

at this time, the Army only had ball ammo... shotguns were not part of the standard fighting doctrine. That gave the 38 cal a bad reputation( until the 357 magnum redeemed it) But With modern defensive ammunition.. it should not matter.Its all about hitting the target.To do that, One must stay with a proven caliber ( 9-40-45) and try to pack a gun/caliber that one can proficiently shoot. Caliber is secondary to shot placement.. that is vital. Good shot placement with a smaller caliber is better than a miss from a 50AE. Since most of us will screw up under the stress of a real gunfight... more ammo means more time on target. One can stay a bit longer in the fight or make corrections for bad shots.

So , unless you encounter a naked, drug ed-up, tourniquet wearing,bolo wielding Filipino guy that is hellbent about being martyrd.. Your 9mm or 40 sw should be just as effective as the 45 acp. ( and what are the chances of you encountering a a drug- crazed assailant with tourniquets on his genitals?)

I pack a 9.. and would " apply as needed" until I run empty. I shoot it faster and better than than my 45. plus I get to practice more due to the cost of ammunition.

 

[NathanJ]

Personally I like what Masaad Ayoob has quoted in an article about the 1911:


"The bolt-action 1903 Springfield and 1917 Enfield .30/06 battle rifles had proven themselves splendidly rugged and accurate when sniping at enemy soldiers across the battlefield. But, when the enemy was right there in the trenches with you, ready to spear you with the blood-stained bayonet of his Mauser, these long, heavy rifles that needed a four-step process to hand-cycle another cartridge into the firing chamber were not the optimum defensive tools. The 1911 pistol, on the other hand, proved to be in its element there. Eight quick flicks of the index finger unleashed eight heavy 230-grain bullets, almost half an inch in diameter and traveling some 830 feet per second. At close range, when a single .45 slug struck the enemy in the wishbone, he tended to be immediately rendered hors de combat. To hell with bayoneted rifles, said the doughboys; this Colt .45 automatic was the ticket to getting out of the trenches alive once the enemy hordes had flowed into those trenches with you.


Countless tales of up close and personal pistol fighting emerged from WWI. The bottom line was that when Americans shot Germans with Colt .45 automatics, the Germans tended to fall down and die. When Germans shot Americans with their 9mm Luger pistols, the Americans tended to become indignant and kill the German who shot them, and then walk to an aid station to either die a lingering death or recover completely. Thus was born the reputation of the .45 automatic as a “legendary manstopper,” and the long-standing American conviction that the 9mm automatic was an impotent wimp thing that would make your wife a widow if you trusted your life to it

Then came WWII. The .45 automatic was the standard military weapon then as well. Used heavily in both theaters of the war, it was particularly valued in the Pacific, where Japanese sappers tended to infiltrate through the wires and be on top of the Yank soldier with knife in hand when the American woke up to deal with it. And the legend of the .45 as the “one shot, one kill” weapon was reinforced. It did not hurt that reputation that the average target in the Pacific was a rice-fed, half-starved biped who weighed about 130 pounds.

Then came Korea, and then Vietnam. Nothing happened to change the image of the .45 automatic as a deadly manstopper. In the mid-1980s, several trends converged upon the one firearm that had served the American military the longest. NATO was pushing the USA for complete compatibility in small arms ammo, and every other nation carried 9mm pistols. Except for target pistols for the pistol teams, the US government had not purchased new 1911s since before the Korean War, and the old guns were getting pretty clapped out. Finally, it is said, the Pentagon wanted cruise missiles in Italy and Italy wanted a lucrative US military contract in return. In any case, it was at that time that the United States armed services adopted the Italian Beretta Model 92F, caliber 9mm, as the official US service handgun that would be designated the M9 and would replace the 1911.

Fast forward to the present. When the War Against Terrorism went into the caves of Afghanistan, pistols became the weapons of choice for soldiers working on point in very close quarters. It became apparent that the 9mm with full metal jacket Geneva Convention ammo was as impotent as it was in WWI, with Al-Queda fanatics soaking up several rounds before they gave up the ghost. Those Yanks fortunate enough to have .45s—Army Delta Force, who purchase their own 1911s out of a stipend provided, and all the Special Operations Command elite who have access to the HK SOCOM pistol in that caliber—found that one or two full metal jacket .45 hardball rounds were all it took to drop a terrorist in his tracks. The call went out again: “We need .45s.”


What goes around comes around. Santayana was right. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

My take is if you need hi capacity to get the job done - then you need to improve on your pistol skills. Most defensive pistol sitituation happen at close range anyways. You should not need that many rounds to get the job done.

 

[smores]

I picked 9mm. Why?

1) I have tiny kid hands.
2) .45 means either less rounds or larger frame.
3) #1 means it's really just less rounds.
4) Statistically, 1/2 of the people you need to shoot at will stop and run with 1 shot, no matter what caliber you use
5) The other 1/2 is very statistically likely to take more then 2 no matter what handgun caliber you use.
6) Statistically I need 2.3 - 2.8 (3 either way) hits before the other guy stops.
7) Square range accuracy goes to shit in a situation where you actually have to shoot.
8) If I can guarantee a 50% hit ratio then I would want at least 6 rounds or 5+1 for the guy.
9) I can't actually guarantee a 50% hit ratio.
10) What if there are 2 (or more) guys?

THIS. Very well said. I'm not familiar with the exact statistics you point to, but logically, it's shot placement that counts and the more chances you have at hitting the right spots the better. "One shot, one kill" is obsolete. If you happen to kill an attacker with one, count yourself lucky as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather be prepared for more if needed.

When I carried a Colt Commander, I carried Winchester Ranger JHP ammo, and 2 spare magazines. But over time I learned that I'd rather carry a G19 with 16 rounds in the gun and 17 or 34 spare rounds in my spare mag carrier/pocket. Sure a double stack .45 is awesome but heavy and expensive to practice with...

ETA: When at home I have a rifle or shotgun by the bed at night as well as my G19. If I had my pick, a long gun is always going to work better. Until I get my HK45 (and can afford to practice a lot with it) I'll stick with 9mm sidearms.

 

[BradMacc82]

Hmm, I have 14 rnd mags for my M&P 45, 13 rounders for the USP 45 - I reload my .45 ammo, so for me .45 - and I don't have big bear paws for hands either.

However I'm not above the 9mm either, 17 round mags for the Hi-Power, and my accuracy is better with it.

I have no issue with carrying/employing either one if it came to it, but that said, I tend to carry .45 more often, just my preference.

 

[damosan]

Three things matter here:

(1) You become a good (great) shot with the round you've chosen.
(2) The firearm is reliable.
(3) You practice immediate action drills for FTE, FTF, etc.

Other than that caliber is a religion. It's best not to talk about religion too much.

 

[mikec]

Its been said thousands of times a 9mm might expand but a 45 will never shrink.

The bullet may not shrink, but the entrance wound may not be .45". A FMJ bullet doesn't always put a .45" hole into the skin and tissue of a human. It can be .40" or less.

 

[BradMacc82]

The bullet may not shrink, but the entrance wound may not be .45". A FMJ bullet doesn't always put a .45" hole into the skin and tissue of a human. It can be .40" or less.

Fair enough point Mike, but aside from military, who's going to be running fmj's???

 

[mikec]

Fair enough point Mike, but aside from military, who's going to be running fmj's???

Some folks in NJ, possibly others who have 1911's that are set up to the USGI specs. Some of those guns don't reliably feed JHPs without some "help". Another group would be people who can't afford high priced designer JHPs and the 50-200 that they should fire out of their gun to make sure it functions 100%.

 

[BradMacc82]

Some folks in NJ, possibly others who have 1911's that are set up to the USGI specs. Some of those guns don't reliably feed JHPs without some "help". Another group would be people who can't afford high priced designer JHPs and the 50-200 that they should fire out of their gun to make sure it functions 100%.

Point taken, I forgot all about NJ's namby-pamby ammo requirement.

 

[mikec]

Point taken, I forgot all about NJ's namby-pamby ammo requirement.

The Barnes copper bullet is usually a good slug. Several companies that load it in high performance defense loads charge around $33 for 20. 200 rounds is $330. AIM has 1,000 rounds of PMC 230gr ball for the same price. Someone could buy that case of ammo, practice like they should and still have enough if the zombies come.

I could see some shooters sticking to .45ACP ball, particularly if $$ was tight. (Over the high $$ JHP)

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

I think alot of people stick the ball cartridge- because they feed more reliably in factory pistols, then HP.

Except for the case of Home defense, where you may not want overpenetration, I see HP in 45ACP as a waste of money. The ball round can & has done its needed job - many times.

 

[BradMacc82]

Before I started reloading for .45, all I ever shot was ball - for the reasons both of you pointed out.

Since I've started rolling my own, I've experimented a bit with diff't rounds - I like 185gr HP because they do penetrate and expand well in my own redneck testing, I use 185gr FP for the range, but after seeing how it performs in my redneck testing, I'd have no problem sending either at a unwelcome individual.

 

[Dogabutila]

THIS. Very well said. I'm not familiar with the exact statistics you point to, but logically, it's shot placement that counts and the more chances you have at hitting the right spots the better. "One shot, one kill" is obsolete. If you happen to kill an attacker with one, count yourself lucky as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather be prepared for more if needed.

When I carried a Colt Commander, I carried Winchester Ranger JHP ammo, and 2 spare magazines. But over time I learned that I'd rather carry a G19 with 16 rounds in the gun and 17 or 34 spare rounds in my spare mag carrier/pocket. Sure a double stack .45 is awesome but heavy and expensive to practice with...

ETA: When at home I have a rifle or shotgun by the bed at night as well as my G19. If I had my pick, a long gun is always going to work better. Until I get my HK45 (and can afford to practice a lot with it) I'll stick with 9mm sidearms.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

My actual numbers were off by a bit; still, roughly 50% 1 shot stops across 9/40/45 and all of them avg 2 and change (so 3) rounds till stop. Further, the failure to incapacitate rates are roughly similar across these rounds.

A handgun is a handgun. I'd rather have more chances to hit with a more controllable round then search for the ever elusive perfect round in the perfect (handgun) caliber.

 

[Sirex]

I prefer .45, but make due with 9mm as primary pistol firearm because someone else may have to use it. The 9mm is actually to grab to cover the hall and buy time to get to the 12G I suppose.

 

[swinokur]

NJ law allows JHP ammo in your home.