A $5000 shotgun?

[Doco Overboard]

I'm shooting my 30+ year old M500 tomorrow at our trap shoot. Its been painted camp so many times it looks like a railroad box car with brite chrome spots from sweaty hands and being carried.
I like it when I dust them all to hell and eject the empties right into the hull bucket.
Rhodesdale doubles is what I call it.
Sometimes I nail the bucket almost every time and miss a bunch of clays but the judge says I have to run the bucket 50 times to write off one loss.

 

[JasonD67]

Been considering getting into trap shooting. Is there a particular gun shop that carries a lot of O/U shotguns so I can at least get a feel for what's what? Looks like Cabela's would be one place to start with, any other stores recommended?

You need to go to Joel Etchens in PA. It’s worth the drive. They have a huge variety of Berettas, Brownings, CGs etc. in all different barrel lengths. They’ll also fit your gun to you which is essential.

Bass Pro, Cabellas, PG only gave a handful of guns and they won’t fit the gun.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

Years ago I did some work with a local machine shop in Hampstead. Big place that employeed maybe 50 people at the time. They had some big government contracts along with a lot of custom local work. The father who started the business was basically retired from the day to day work and spent all of his working time making hand made competition and sportsman shotguns. All uniquely personalized for his customers. He mentioned that they started at around $10K and went up from there. Oh yea these were 1995 dollars.


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Silver Seitz? https://www.silverseitz.com/guns

I think the actual shop is called AIM Machining. My job hired a machinist who used to work there years ago. From what he said it seemed like the guns were a hobby/side gig of the business and they all piddled with it whenever there was time

 

[PapiBarcelona]

Anyway, the other part no one talks about having an "expensive" gun is stupidity.

I was shooting sporting clays with my usual crew and some rando accidentally knocked over a rack full of guns at a station. One of my friend's customized Beretta stock got cracked pretty bad.

10/11 years ago my Browning Cynergy took a tumble off a side by side, I set it on a rack in the bed and forgot to strap it up. I was lucky didn't have damage like that Beretta that took way less of a fall IMO. Again, major stupidity on my part.

 

[303_enfield]

5K, that's cheap for some. If you ever get down to OC, check a Larry's Trading Post.

Want a 50K shotgun? He has some in stock.

I was looking for a .410 bore for the kids. Found a nice double, till I read the $58,990 price tag.

Found a nice used 686 in 410 in his used rack.

Shotguns are like cars. Cheap will get the job done.

 

[Darkemp]

****This. At a certain point, when someone is already good - the equipment absolutely makes a difference, even if just for consistency. This is true for Skeet/Trap as well as other sports at the highest end. Remarkably expensive guns at the Olympic level and they aren't using $500 shotguns from the local gun store.

This is true in other sports including skiing, luge, bike racing, triathlon, IDPA/IPSC, BMX, etc...

A champion Trap shooter will absolutely crush a novice or average Trap shooter even with a stock gun and nothing fancy - they are just better shooters. However, at the highest levels of competition - everyone is really really good and that extra few % for superlative equipment is the difference between winning and getting bupkus.

The fact that the champion will outperform seems to have more to do with skillset, practice, and experience though over equipment. I bet they would still beat the novice even if they swapped shotguns.

 

[ToolAA]

Silver Seitz? https://www.silverseitz.com/guns

I think the actual shop is called AIM Machining. My job hired a machinist who used to work there years ago. From what he said it seemed like the guns were a hobby/side gig of the business and they all piddled with it whenever there was time

Yup those were the guys. It was the father’s side/retirement gig. Not a full time business IIRC. They were a good shop for us in the beginning but eventually we outgrew their capabilities and needed some really .0001 tolerance stuff later on.


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[Aamdskeetshooter]

Been considering getting into trap shooting. Is there a particular gun shop that carries a lot of O/U shotguns so I can at least get a feel for what's what? Looks like Cabela's would be one place to start with, any other stores recommended?

I can't stress enough to take a ride up to Joe Etchens. He's the largest Beretta dealer in the country. He stocks other brands too. Be honest and just tell them you're new to trap and O/U shotguns. They will take care of you. Yes, you will see guns in all the crazy price ranges. No one starting out buys a $10,000+ shotgun. They know that. Shyda's would be my second choice.

Contact Us | Joel Etchen Guns, Ligonier Pennsylvania | Shotguns Online

Joel Etchen Guns has grown to be Beretta’s largest independent target gun dealer. We stock many brands of Shotguns including Beretta, Krieghoff, Browning, Blaser, Benelli, Ljutic, Fausti, Silver Seitz, and Kolar.

www.joeletchenguns.com

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

You should see the price on a Krieghoff Skeet or Trap gun.

Came here to say this.

 

[slsc98]

This thread came to mind a couple hours ago; I was shooting at Sarasota today and a member of the United States Helice Association https://www.ushelice.com/index.php/home

who was there practicing for an upcoming qualifier shoot (ahead of selections for the US Shooting Teams) allowed me to handle, admire and shoulder his $23,000 Perazzi one off SxS built specifically for zz-bird competition.

We were at the trunk of his vehicle and I was exceedingly tactful in observing all the previously owned DC-12’s I have been looking have all been closer to the $17,000 range. Well, to his credit and darn if he didn’t proceed to walk me through - and show me - all the options (spare bbl sets, custom rib, nickel finish, extra drop-in fire control assemblies, etc., etc.) that brought that gun up to its original purchase price.

It was quite a piece (and he is quite a shooter)

Here are a video and an article on the discipline, a variation of Olympic (or “bunker”) trap:

Catching Some ZZs

Though there is still live-pigeon shooting in some European countries and the US, Helice offers the challenges of live-pigeon shooting without the attendant “issues.” Many clays clubs are adding one or more Helice rings alongside their trap, skeet and sporting clays courses to the delight of...

shootingsportsman.com

 

[DanGuy48]

It seems to me it’s the same with most everything, there’s the usual stuff, the better stuff and then it’s into the land of diminishing returns. Think, shoes, hi-Fi equipment, camera gear, cars, clothing, you name it. For people that have the obsession, or plenty of dollars, there exist products just for them.

 

[danimalw]

Another vote for Joel Etchen's.

Last fall, brother and I went there since he's a lefty.
He was able to handle 4 different lefty models that day between Browning and Beretta. Prepare to spend some time there comparing different makes, models. I forget who the salesman was that helped him, but super helpful, zero pressure and patient.

Was totally worth the drive to find one that fit him 99% without having to take it anywhere to have stock adjusted further.

So to op's question. Some of the more expensive shotguns have more adjustability or may have cast on or cast off to offer a better fit right out of the box. That will help the shooter with scores.

I have a stoeger M2000 ($550) that I waterfowl hunt with. I occasionally take it for clays and I should more often, but my 625 Citori field fits me better (zero adjustments) and therefore I shoot the 625 better. I take the 625 more for clays since I'll shoot better with it.

I see everything from 100 year old pumps, side by sides, new inexpensive shotguns all the way up through Cesaar Guerini's at sporting clays. There is zero judgement from anyone.

About 25 years ago, I was shooting clays at HFG with a Browning BPS, one station had a super fast pair. One of the other guys in squad, whom I had just met, handed me his expensive o/u and said, " you'll never shuck that fast enough for the second shot so use mine."

As to the comments up thread that it's stupid to spend that much for a gun. We live in a FREE capitalist society and if someone has the means to spend that much on a gun (or any other object) it's their choice, their freedom and not for me to judge. Each person has different tastes. I have a friend who drove to TN to buy a certain Mustang 500 and he spent more than my first mortgage was (was a condo in 1998). While it's a nice car, I wouldn't do that, but it's not my car or my money.

Life is short, life is uncertain, enjoy it and screw what others think about how you spend YOUR money, whether its on a $500 or $50000 gun.

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

This thread came to mind a couple hours ago; I was shooting at Sarasota today and a member of the United States Helice Association https://www.ushelice.com/index.php/home

who was there practicing for an upcoming qualifier shoot (ahead of selections for the US Shooting Teams) allowed me to handle, admire and shoulder his $23,000 Perazzi one off SxS built specifically for zz-bird competition.

We were at the trunk of his vehicle and I was exceedingly tactful in observing all the previously owned DC-12’s I have been looking have all been closer to the $17,000 range. Well, to his credit and darn if he didn’t proceed to walk me through - and show me - all the options (spare bbl sets, custom rib, nickel finish, extra drop-in fire control assemblies, etc., etc.) that brought that gun up to its original purchase price.

It was quite a piece (and he is quite a shooter)

Here are a video and an article on the discipline, a variation of Olympic (or “bunker”) trap:

Catching Some ZZs

Though there is still live-pigeon shooting in some European countries and the US, Helice offers the challenges of live-pigeon shooting without the attendant “issues.” Many clays clubs are adding one or more Helice rings alongside their trap, skeet and sporting clays courses to the delight of...

shootingsportsman.com

Side by side? Very unusual. Did he mention why he didn't go with an O/U?

 

[Aamdskeetshooter]

Another vote for Joel Etchen's.

Last fall, brother and I went there since he's a lefty.
He was able to handle 4 different lefty models that day between Browning and Beretta. Prepare to spend some time there comparing different makes, models. I forget who the salesman was that helped him, but super helpful, zero pressure and patient.

Was totally worth the drive to find one that fit him 99% without having to take it anywhere to have stock adjusted further.

So to op's question. Some of the more expensive shotguns have more adjustability or may have cast on or cast off to offer a better fit right out of the box. That will help the shooter with scores.

I have a stoeger M2000 ($550) that I waterfowl hunt with. I occasionally take it for clays and I should more often, but my 625 Citori field fits me better (zero adjustments) and therefore I shoot the 625 better. I take the 625 more for clays since I'll shoot better with it.

I see everything from 100 year old pumps, side by sides, new inexpensive shotguns all the way up through Cesaar Guerini's at sporting clays. There is zero judgement from anyone.

About 25 years ago, I was shooting clays at HFG with a Browning BPS, one station had a super fast pair. One of the other guys in squad, whom I had just met, handed me his expensive o/u and said, " you'll never shuck that fast enough for the second shot so use mine."

As to the comments up thread that it's stupid to spend that much for a gun. We live in a FREE capitalist society and if someone has the means to spend that much on a gun (or any other object) it's their choice, their freedom and not for me to judge. Each person has different tastes. I have a friend who drove to TN to buy a certain Mustang 500 and he spent more than my first mortgage was (was a condo in 1998). While it's a nice car, I wouldn't do that, but it's not my car or my money.

Life is short, life is uncertain, enjoy it and screw what others think about how you spend YOUR money, whether its on a $500 or $50000 gun.

Very well said. Etchen's is THE go to for higher end shotguns in this area.

 

[Doco Overboard]

For the prices involved with some of these shotguns and all the fitting expertise, and so on and so forth how many of them have a range to where you can actually shoot them prior to sale?
Especially the used ones.

 

[slsc98]

Side by side? Very unusual. Did he mention why he didn't go with an O/U?

I thought so as well but, he didn’t mention why his preference and I didn’t inquire. That SxS is fixed chokes IC / Mod which also struck me as crazy (and I didn’t th8n’nto inquire what chokes the extra barrel set were) but, he explained the distance to helice launchers are 25 meters so, those chokes make sense; however; he is an old (old!) Olympic / bunker trap shooter so, I am sure he not only also shoots o/u’s (but with much tighter chokes!)

 

[slsc98]

… how many of them have a range to where you can actually shoot them prior to sale?
Especially the used ones.

Typically only the shops that do both sales AND fitting.

Typically, if we are standing in a “gallery” it’s a sales only joint.

If it’s a “shop” and they do actual fitting, they often (but not always) either have a patterning board out back or down the road a ways …

Good example is Coles, now with 3 locations, (ME, FL and TX) which can accommodate patterning with a fitter, either on-site or nearby. https://colegun.com/cole-customs/#custom-fittings

 

[jimbobborg]

I used to shoot sporting clays every once in a while. I either take my Browning Superposed (both were under $1200 each) or I take my most expensive shotgun, a Benelli M2 Custom Shop 3-gun Edition ($2400). The Benelli has a 10-shot tube, which sticks out past the 24" barrel. I get the occasional odd looks from people if I'm carrying it. I think I've put more shells through this than any other shotgun I've ever owned. Was it worth the price of admission? With what it came with and it's capabilities, for me, that's a yes. It does everything I initially wanted it for and does a decent job with clay sports.

 

[trickg]

It's been my casual observation hanging out at the trap fields at AGC and seeing some of the guns there, that there is a definite difference in quality when the price bumps up, although some of that quality doesn't equate to a better shooting gun.

The most noticeable thing - and it's VERY noticeable - is quality of wood, fit, finish, and general aesthetics are all better on the more expensive guns - the expensive guns are virtually all nicely engraved and checkered. Less expensive guns are sometimes laser engraved, and checking is typically laser cut.

Functionally the thing I notice the most is how smooth the actions are and how tight the lockup is on the break guns, and the triggers. It seems like the lesser expense double guns all have heavier triggers - 7+ lbs - whereas the more expensive guns have lighter and/or adjustable triggers.

The higher expense guns are almost always adjustable in some capacity as well - most have adjustable combs and butt plates, some have adjustable length of pull, and some even have adjustments that can be made to the rib. Essentially, it gives the owner/shooter options to be able to custom fit the gun for the best possible performance. Theoretically.

There's also the idea that a more expensive, well-made gun will last longer than a cheaper gun. I'll say this - my wife's Browning BT-99 locks up so tight, after I clean and grease it, it squeezes most of that grease out when I close it up for the first time. The more she shoots it and more broken in it gets, the slicker and smoother it gets.

As others have said, it's absolutely possible to shoot well with a gun that doesn't cost a lot of money, but I do think that there is a benefit to spending a bit more. although I think there's probably a sweet spot to be found where functional quality meets price, and that's likely south of $5K.

 

[Doco Overboard]

When the Guerini guy used to come to the farm to try guns I’m not sure I ever saw a gun that was fitted with a 6 way adjustable butt plate that I can recall. I’m not sure how a custom fit gunstock would be a necessity after paying for professional fitting and construction but could be wrong.
They had a tactical prototype out there last time I talked to tech which was interesting I’m not sure if they produced or went anywhere with it. That had some adjustable features built into it.
Once the old man died Ricky told them not to come back anyway soon afterwards so I don’t know what that final result was or if it was even offered to the shooting public.
Anyway, I never bought a car without driving it unless it didn’t run and I knew it so I don’t think I would be plunking down thousands in cash for a shotgun without at least trying a used model out. For some strange reason I’ll do nearly the opposite when it comes to a rifle but none of them are primarily designed for shooting moving targets although most will do in a pinch.
Some one I know bought a Kreighoff after switching from a BT 99. Their averages are lower than what they used to be but after being so deep into it for cash they’re too blind to see it and understandably so it seems.
To each his own I guess especially if confidence is a factor and you have the coins for a hobby that you enjoy.