A case to be made for "sporterized" antiques

[Doctor_M]

OK... I'm not advocating destroying valuable antiques or C&Rs to create bubbas... but there are plenty of sporterized rifles out there already. I have picked up a few "modernized" antique rifles in recent days (pre-1899 Mausers, Krags, etc.) that have been outfitted with modern stocks, bedded, rebarrelled/rechambered, outfitted with modern optics, etc.... heck, one even had a threaded barrel and will serve as a suppressor host. Despite being 120+ years old, these guns function fine and are quite capable out to more than 300 yards (probably way more than that, but that's about as far I have room to shoot). Since MD had made it a goal to destroy all private transfers, I've put much more attention into the one area that is still truly free to trade and transfer without government tracking and interference; antiques.

While, I have better rifles and I wouldn't want to rely on only having antiques if I can help it, the fact remains that these are truly off-the-books, and if you have a few functional ones, you can stash them for a rainy day, where they can serve as a hunting or sniper rifle if you really need it. Will they stay that way, forever... no. MDA has already once tried to make antique and black-powder weapons legally the same as modern arms, and I have no doubt they will try again. For that reason, it may be worth a look at stashing one or two of these old war-horses away for a rainy day and maybe investing in upgrades that will keep it serviceable for the next 50-60 years.

Again, I'm not tossing my MSRs and standard capacity magazines out the door... just one more hedge to make sure that I'm never fully disarmed. Offering this topic up for discussion... feel free to tell me I'm silly.

 

[trickg]

I've never felt that a sporter on an old military bolt gun is a bad thing unless it's totally Bubba'd. I have 3 fine sporter hunting rifles - one is on a Gewehr 98 action, on is on a Kar98 small ring action, and one is on a 1903A3. They are 25-06, 8mm Mauser and 35 Whelen, respectively.

There was once a time in this country, long ago, where if you wanted a fine sporter bolt gun, it was done on a military action of some kind. If you read through the book, "Hell, I Was There!" - Elmer Keith's autobiography - most of his hunting rifles were sportered military rifles.

I realize that you're making the case based on having sporter hunting/sniping rifles that are off book, but I have never seen a problem with building a fine hunting rifle on an old military rifle action such as a Mauser 98 or 1903A3.

From top to bottom:

K98 in 8mm Mauser
G98 in 25-06
1903A3 in 35 Whelen

 

[Doco Overboard]

I’m getting ready to build another Krag sporter from a bunch of left over parts that I’ve had for some time (1896).
Pretty sure I have a few cut down barrels left over.
As far as I know , legal terms as they are defined in our state identify it as a firearm. Which is pretty much anything that goes bang even some BP rifles these days.
But outside of all of that, it’s a gross underestimation to lump some antiques into the ineffective / non usefulness category.
People just don’t feature things they don’t understand and or like modern stuff which is fine I think.

 

[beetles]

OK... I'm not advocating destroying valuable antiques or C&Rs to create bubbas... but there are plenty of sporterized rifles out there already. I have picked up a few "modernized" antique rifles in recent days (pre-1899 Mausers, Krags, etc.) that have been outfitted with modern stocks, bedded, rebarrelled/rechambered, outfitted with modern optics, etc.... heck, one even had a threaded barrel and will serve as a suppressor host. Despite being 120+ years old, these guns function fine and are quite capable out to more than 300 yards (probably way more than that, but that's about as far I have room to shoot). Since MD had made it a goal to destroy all private transfers, I've put much more attention into the one area that is still truly free to trade and transfer without government tracking and interference; antiques.

While, I have better rifles and I wouldn't want to rely on only having antiques if I can help it, the fact remains that these are truly off-the-books, and if you have a few functional ones, you can stash them for a rainy day, where they can serve as a hunting or sniper rifle if you really need it. Will they stay that way, forever... no. MDA has already once tried to make antique and black-powder weapons legally the same as modern arms, and I have no doubt they will try again. For that reason, it may be worth a look at stashing one or two of these old war-horses away for a rainy day and maybe investing in upgrades that will keep it serviceable for the next 50-60 years.

Again, I'm not tossing my MSRs and standard capacity magazines out the door... just one more hedge to make sure that I'm never fully disarmed. Offering this topic up for discussion... feel free to tell me I'm silly.

There was a full-service gun shop near my hometown (PIT) now long-gone, perched high up on a hill done in the style of a log cabin where they specialized in exactly that kind of building: vintage Mauser actions mated to new Belgian-made barrels and re-stocked as sporters. The place was Flaig's Guns, and they sold by mail order and in their shop. Their work pops up on resales on Gunbroker from time to time. It is an old tradition that not many people do any longer. (The WWI designs and parts for bolt guns were still plentiful in the mid-20th century but not so much anymore.) Their work was more than just functional, it was top quality.

 

[28Shooter]

My uncle brought home the very rifle he carried all over the South Pacific during WWII - an '03 Springfield which he was allowed to purchase upon discharge. He had the rifle sporterized when he got home and that was his deer rifle until the day he died. Talk about knowing your gun! His son has that rifle today and it still goes out every opening day up in PA. Good rifles never die, they are for handing down.

 

[Doctor_M]

My favorite deer gun is a sporter 1917. I have yet to shoot at a deer that didn't wind up dead with that rifle.

 

[TheLizardKing]

I think old firearms should remain in their original historical configuration, but to each their own.

 

[traveller]

I don't get the bellyaching about sporterized military rifles. Millions of these rifles were made to supply the various wars. Re-using them for a Sporter beats tossing them into an arc furnace for scrap.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I think old firearms should remain in their original historical configuration, but to each their own.

Yeah me too ,I own a veritable shitload of them in original configuration and have restored just as many maybe back to same.
I also don’t have a problem sporting a 1896 rifle receiver back into an action or working firearm example either.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I've never felt that a sporter on an old military bolt gun is a bad thing unless it's totally Bubba'd. I have 3 fine sporter hunting rifles - one is on a Gewehr 98 action, on is on a Kar98 small ring action, and one is on a 1903A3. They are 25-06, 8mm Mauser and 35 Whelen, respectively.

There was once a time in this country, long ago, where if you wanted a fine sporter bolt gun, it was done on a military action of some kind. If you read through the book, "Hell, I Was There!" - Elmer Keith's autobiography - most of his hunting rifles were sportered military rifles.

I realize that you're making the case based on having sporter hunting/sniping rifles that are off book, but I have never seen a problem with building a fine hunting rifle on an old military rifle action such as a Mauser 98 or 1903A3.

From top to bottom:

K98 in 8mm Mauser
G98 in 25-06
1903A3 in 35 Whelen

View attachment 379127 View attachment 379128

Beautiful

 

[Doco Overboard]

Beautiful

How bout it?
That sfield is as nice a rifle as one could own.
One time long ago I read about an O3 that belongs to Craig Boddington.
He had it built up into a lefty for a trip to Africa. Must have been late 70’s or early 80’s.
I think he went on to shoot a bunch of leopards over there with it or something.

 

[trickg]

This:

I think old firearms should remain in their original historical configuration, but to each their own.

Contrasted with this:

I don't get the bellyaching about sporterized military rifles. Millions of these rifles were made to supply the various wars. Re-using them for a Sporter beats tossing them into an arc furnace for scrap.

I think each has a purpose. I can see why guys like to collect the old military rifles. It's a whole exercise trying to figure out when it was made, where it was made, sometimes where the various parts were made, where it was sent, who it was issued to, etc, all the way up to its current place.

What I find sad about so many of those old guns is that they rarely get shot or used, and that's ok I guess - so many things that are collected are done for display purposes, or for the intrinsic value it may posses from a collector's perspective. My Dad was a gun accumulator and over the course of his life he had a number of old military rifles in original configuration. I can also tell you that most of those guns never had a round fired through them in all my lifetime - they sat their on the rack, collecting dust until the point in time when Dad had someone over and he was telling them all about his gun collection.

All three of the sporters above have been fired inside this last calendar year. I put a new Timney trigger in that 8mm Mauser to replace the stock trigger that was in it, and I took it out to give it a go. The 25-06 got fired on the anniversary of my Dad's passing - fitting considering that he did the build on that gun. The 35 Whelen gets shot mostly for the novelty of shooting it - it kicks like a mule, but that's to be expected when looking at the physics of pushing a 225 or 250 gr .358 caliber bullet to 2600-2700 fps. One day I'll take it hunting and take something with it.

I guess that's just a long way of saying that I see merit to both - collecting and leaving things alone is good, but creating a beautiful and functional hunting rifle is also good.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

This:

Contrasted with this:

I think each has a purpose. I can see why guys like to collect the old military rifles. It's a whole exercise trying to figure out when it was made, where it was made, sometimes where the various parts were made, where it was sent, who it was issued to, etc, all the way up to its current place.

What I find sad about so many of those old guns is that they rarely get shot or used, and that's ok I guess - so many things that are collected are done for display purposes, or for the intrinsic value it may posses from a collector's perspective. My Dad was a gun accumulator and over the course of his life he had a number of old military rifles in original configuration. I can also tell you that most of those guns never had a round fired through them in all my lifetime - they sat their on the rack, collecting dust until the point in time when Dad had someone over and he was telling them all about his gun collection.

All three of the sporters above have been fired inside this last calendar year. I put a new Timney trigger in that 8mm Mauser to replace the stock trigger that was in it, and I took it out to give it a go. The 25-06 got fired on the anniversary of my Dad's passing - fitting considering that he did the build on that gun. The 35 Whelen gets shot mostly for the novelty of shooting it - it kicks like a mule, but that's to be expected when looking at the physics of pushing a 225 or 250 gr .358 caliber bullet to 2600-2700 fps. One day I'll take it hunting and take something with it.

I guess that's just a long way of saying that I see merit to both - collecting and leaving things alone is good, but creating a beautiful and functional hunting rifle is also good.

Blonde, brunette, redhead, big boobs, full figured, long legged and lean, good cook, lousy cook, mean as a snake or lovely as can be. All good choices depending on the guy doing the choosing.

 

[traveller]

Oh, I don't begrudge anyone for collecting C&R in original configuration, researching history etc. Great hobby if that is what you are into.
It's the hate some people spew for seeing a Sporter with a k98 action as if someone went out of their way to destroy a heirloom rifle. There was a point you could buy those rifles by the crate and there was an industry of turning them into Sporters. It's just a secondary use of s piece of hardware, getting hurt feelings over something done 70 years ago is just silly.

 

[trickg]

It's just a secondary use of s piece of hardware, getting hurt feelings over something done 70 years ago is just silly.

The 25-06 above was built by my Dad in the mid 1960s before I was even an itch in his pants. The 8mm Mauser was likely done in the same era, and the 35 Whelen was likley built in the early 1980s based on the McGowan barrel.

 

[Doctor_M]

I have a Mauser that was redone in .22-250 and is beautiful. That baby is a tack driver, pure and simple.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I still have two Mauser sporters left from all the ones I built.
I bet I haven’t used the one for more than 10 years.
I should take it out and shoot it some soon.
I messed the bluing up on the floor plate some by getting blood on it so I quit shooting it.
The other one , an Oberndorf had a blown cartridge stuck in the chamber when I got it and the bolt handle broke off it. Lol
So I rebarrelled it to 7x57 with a spoon handle to another bolt and necg fittings.
No plastic on the old ones is what I like.
One day somebody is going to wind up with some whopper rifles and not even understand what the hell they're looking at.
Bill Truitt helped me with one or the other when I put those together. It was Gary who blued the one for me.
I wished I would have gotten him to polish re- blue the floorplate for me.

 

[calicojack]

How about my Trap Door Springfield?

NM - not sure how I would mount a scope

 

[Blacksmith101]

How about my Trap Door Springfield?

NM - not sure how I would mount a scope

Use a long eye relief handgun scope mounted well forward. It will work.

 

[lazarus]

This:

Contrasted with this:

I think each has a purpose. I can see why guys like to collect the old military rifles. It's a whole exercise trying to figure out when it was made, where it was made, sometimes where the various parts were made, where it was sent, who it was issued to, etc, all the way up to its current place.

What I find sad about so many of those old guns is that they rarely get shot or used, and that's ok I guess - so many things that are collected are done for display purposes, or for the intrinsic value it may posses from a collector's perspective. My Dad was a gun accumulator and over the course of his life he had a number of old military rifles in original configuration. I can also tell you that most of those guns never had a round fired through them in all my lifetime - they sat their on the rack, collecting dust until the point in time when Dad had someone over and he was telling them all about his gun collection.

All three of the sporters above have been fired inside this last calendar year. I put a new Timney trigger in that 8mm Mauser to replace the stock trigger that was in it, and I took it out to give it a go. The 25-06 got fired on the anniversary of my Dad's passing - fitting considering that he did the build on that gun. The 35 Whelen gets shot mostly for the novelty of shooting it - it kicks like a mule, but that's to be expected when looking at the physics of pushing a 225 or 250 gr .358 caliber bullet to 2600-2700 fps. One day I'll take it hunting and take something with it.

I guess that's just a long way of saying that I see merit to both - collecting and leaving things alone is good, but creating a beautiful and functional hunting rifle is also good.

The one thing that always bothers me a little is if you shoot it, you are using it up.

Sure, in some cases the time scale is ridiculous. I can take a Garand out and if I shoot 1 clip a year, it is going to take somewhere around 1000 years before it needs to be rebarreled. Even if I shoot 80 rounds a year, that's a century. But the fact still comes down, using it, uses it up. Maybe if you are shooting a 22LR it might not, but even there, SOME day you'll eventually wear out the barrel. Parts will break. Etc.

But my 2 cents are, unless it's an actual museum piece, it was meant to be used. It is nice to keep some examples in as nice a shape as possible and never use them. But do we need 5 million M1 Garands as museum pieces? Or are a few thousand probably more than enough for the entire world of museums?

Same with a lot of other stuff. I do believe in CARING for things. Even commodity things I don't believe in treating them any worse than you must. And I don't believe just because you wear a barrel out and need to rebarrel something, it becomes worthless. But it does bother me deep inside a little that if I take my Garand out and shoot it as much as I want, there is a chance I might need to rebarrel it in my lifetime. My kids will almost certainly have to rebarrel it if/when they inherit it. Now, I might never shoot out the barrel. I really don't shoot it more than 40-60 rounds a year right now. Plenty of my guns I will never ever shoot out. Some I will.

What matters the most to me is that you are caring for whatever you have. Do whatever you want with it, but the only time I turn my nose up is when people don't take care of things. Want to shoot out the barrel, shoot out the barrel. But please, don't let it rust out after shooting a bunch of corrosive ammo. There is no reason for that. Want to take a mint 1903A4 out of its stock, cut it down, stick it in a chassis and put a 20x scope on it. More power to you.