AK-47 Quality question??

[fivepointstar]

I'll have to admit that my knowledge of modern battle rifles is pretty weak but I'm coming around and relying on the MDS Community to educate me. There just so much to learn about FAL's, AR15's, CETME, H&K's, etc etc. I'll come back to those another time.

My questions are on AK-47 quality. If the AK-47 is incredibly reliable, whats the difference in the AK's from various countries? I would say, if an AK is and AK is an AK, then why does it matter. I know there was/are problems with the QC of CAI receivers. But not counting Aesthetics, why should I want a Saiga over an Arsenal over a Yugo over a Norinco over a Romy??

What about the AK variants.....are Galil and Valmets (am i missing any) AK variants and what makes them variants. Other than aesthetics, the looks and working components seem to be AK

Other than the way the receiver was manufactured, what is the difference b/n a milled receiver and a stamped receiver. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can identify the milled by the dimples in the receiver.

What am I missing?

Is there a book that can help me over all with the battle rifles of the world?

THANK YOU!!!

 

[joppaj]

I can tell you that Arsenal is a builder. My Arsenal is built on a Saiga receiver. Saigas are Russian produced "sporter" guns that come from the factory with cheap quality stocks and unable to take a standard AK mag. This is why you hear about people converting them. Arsenal is essentialy one such converter but apparently they do a very nice conversion. You're welcome to try mine when we make it up to Delta.

 

[fivepointstar]

You're welcome to try mine when we make it up to Delta.

 

[Jaybeez]

The difference from country to country is usually evident in the final machining and finsih. Romanians typically have more rough machining marks in parts like the trunnions and front sight bases, with a park only finish. Bulgarians have smoother machining and typically paint, or paint over park finish. Yugos are well machined, with great blueing, but many times its worn (on surplus) and non chrome lines bores.

For the most part, function is identical. Yugos have heavier barrels. Valmets and galils have a longer sight radius. Bulgarians and yugos have thicker (stiffer) stamped recievers, ect. But they are all a long action piston, rotating bolt design, like many other rifles.

Milled receivers can usually be identified by their lighten-ing cuts (remove weight, not crash of thunder). Although some yugos are missing them on the left side. The trunnions are integral with the receiver, and depending on the country of origin, they may have threaded or standard pinned in barrels. Milled guns are considered stiffer, but some US makers havd quality control issues with their metal, and there has been cracking in the past.


www.warriortalk.com has alot of info on AK/kalishnikov fucntion and use. If you want a gun that eats everything and goes bang, the wasr or saiga, or anything elde on the cheaper scale is usually good to go. Hand pick one if shopping for a wasr and check for canted sights first. But, the AK can become an obsession, much like collections of berettas or eastern blok guns, and the desire to obtain one of each variant can be overwhelming.

Certain aks are considered top of the line for their refinement and quality control. The vepr and valmet are on that short list. Others are desired because they are rare or uncommon, real vintage russians, egyptians, east germans, koreans, or certain chinese variants (like the double folders, folding stock and folding spike bayo).

For info on variations and types check out www.theakforum.net , the best ak resourse on the web, but its a little laggy.

 

[rob-cubed]

As Jaybeez said, fit and finish are the main differences--functionally there is no difference between various AKs and other rifles based on the AK pattern. Some models are simply made better than others, and are more accurate due to better barrels and higher tolerances. Generally, milled receivers are more accurate but they are also noticeably heavier. Stamped are the standard, but run very hot they can warp and throw off accuracy. There are many weights of stamped receivers, with the heavier ones (1.5 mm) being a little superior to the lighter (1 mm) ones.

Clones that have the rear site moved onto the dust cover are generally superior. The short sight radius on an AK is one of its weak points. In general the AK platform sacrifices some accuracy for reliability--the best AKs simply shoot more accurately.

 

[Jaybeez]

I'll have my new workshop finished soon...

Just have to get the press, blasting cabinet, vices, and the rest of my tools moved in.

 

[johny357]

The top of the line AK's are valmets, veprs, and galil's; these rifles are extremely expensive and hard to find. There are so many manufacturers of AK's throughout so many decades from so many countries, that it is difficult to rank them in terms of quality. However, the majority of AK's you encounter were built from parts kits, that is, used parts from many rifles lumped together. When buying an AK you want the rifle to be as close to factory original as possible; the more replacement parts, the more difficult it is to vouch for the quality of the rifle. That being said, nearly every AK that is assembled properly will go bang every time. IMO the best bang for your buck today would be an arsenal in 7.62x39. Every part of this rifle is built factory new. www.k-var.com just had a sale on them, I think they can still be had for $599 for a limited time. This is probably the only rifle i would order sight unseen. Other than that just inspect the rifle, make sure the sights are not canted, the barrel is clean/shiny and free from pitting, ask questions about the manufacturer/origin of parts kits and you should be good to go. good luck, half the fun is in the hunt.

 

[alucard0822]

Most of the prices are way off being this was posted about 2 years ago, but is still true for the most part.

There are some things to consider though, most every AK variant sold here is built on a US reciever , and contains a good number of US parts in order to stay 922 compliant. Build quality varies wildly depending on the parts used, the finish, and so on, and can vary a god bit from the AK/country the domestic build is based on. For example, Romanian kits are about the cheapest around, and Wasrs built from the kits by century tend to be poorly finished with crappy quality control, however Lancaster AKs built on the same Romanian patter are top of the line, and excellent in fit and finish, while being relatively accurate and robust, so often times rifles may not adhere 100% to the general atributes of the original they are based on.

Romanian wasr's are pretty cheap looking, and probably the least accurate of all the AKs, but they use standard furniture, have a chrome barrel, and are currently pretty cheap, about $350 look out for the goofy single stack "low-cap" models, they won't take normal double stack mags

Yugo M70s can be had with wood furniture and a fixed stock, or plastic handguard and a really sturdy metal underfolder stock, they are not chrome lined, but have very thick stampings, and are one of the more accurate and rigid AKs, the furniture is not standard, so most of the tacticool stuff around for AKs doesn't fit. The wood stock sits a little high, and gives a good cheek slap for tall folks, and while the metal is nice, the wood is practically unfinished and rough. presently around $450

Bulgarian AKs are very nice, with crisp stampings, and a better finish, I belive this is what Arsenal builds on, but they are pricey, and a little hard to find. $600-700

Hungarian AKs are decent, and well made, with a goofy forward grip and sometimes a really flimsy folding stock on the 65 ($600), and a nice and sturdy 1 peice thumbhole stock on the mostly post ban 85 ($700), nice but pricey for what you get.

Russian, good luck finding one in a standard AK pattern, they are very nice, but prices are currently inflated to around $800, robarms used to import the veprs, but stopped, however the saiga is basically a sporterized version, also available in several other calibers, and for $300-$500 depending on caliber are an honest bargain, to swap over to AK style furniture is a PITA(sometimes you can find ones already post-swap, or imported with plastic "standard" AK furniture), and can be expensive, but you will have a very nice and accurate AK when done, with the possibility of it being in an alternate caliber, like 308win, 223, or even 12ga or .410.

MAADI egyptian AKs, thicker barrel, and usually have a built in bipod, they are usually accurate and sturdy,although finish and quality control are often crappy, but for $500 are a fairly nice AK for the money, they are getting hard to find.

Finnish Valmet M76, the king of AKs, highest quality, very accurate (seen one group just over 1" at 100yds with cabellas v-max ammo) fit and finish are superb, mostly milled with improved sights on the rear dust cover and gas block, non-standard furniture, but who in their right mind would change it? For $1500 I would probably rather have an M1A, FAL, or about a dozen other rifles. These rifles are rare to begin with, but a handful were made in 5.56X45, and a couple of the heavier M78s made in 7.62 NATO.

czech VZ58- high quality milled reciever (up there with the best russian and german) accurate, good fit and finnish, and starting to be imported directly via CZ arms, the price is high, but IMO they are worth it if you are looking for a superb quality turn-key AKish rifle, like the Yugo they use non-standard furniture, mags, and many other parts, it also uses a completely different short stroke gas piston and different bolt setup, but CZ furniture is beautiful, unlike the yugo, $800 for mil-surp, close to $1K for a tacticool or sporter from CZ arms.

Chinese Norinco mak90 I havent seen around in a while, they are of average quality, and the finish is more blued than parkerized, I think we burned throuh most of their surplus in the dark 94AWB days as most have very light colored thumbhole stocks, non-threaded barrels, and normally include a 10rd mag. They were decent, but priced around $500 between the yugo and bulgie, which both seemed to shoot better, at least IMO



There are a few other AK type rifles and countries of manufacture (Iraqui, Iranian, Indian) I don't really know much about them, and certainly have never shot one, so your guess is as good as mine.

In addition the Galil Was an "improved" AK, solid folding stock, improved action, much better sights(monted like the Valmet), a fantastic charging handle upgrade (vertical to allow ambidextrous use), ambi safety, and chambered in 5.56NATO. Fit and finish are generally good, althoug some of the Century Galils have poor quality control.

There are also US made AKs, instead of building from a kit, or importing as a sporting rifle, some companies build them entirely from domestic parts. Some are based off of a specific AK like the BUlgarian pattern Arsenals, others contain features from a variety of AK variants. There are also many AK47 variants that also can be had in AK-74 pattern, with the difference being prdominantly the chambering, 7.62X39 in the AK47 pattern, and 5.45X39 in the AK-74 pattern rifles.

What is and isn't an AK can be kinda hard to figure out, VZ58s "look like" AKs, but use a competely different gas system and bolt, others like the Sig 550 rifles use a bolt design and some other parts similar to the AK design, or rifles like the PSL or Druganov use a lengthened AK action, but serve a different purpose, and are more an adaption of the desing than a variant. The Russian Kalashnikov designed rifles and their decendents have been so influential that there are bound to be other firearms that borrow some features, if not the entire design. There have also been numerous upgrades and improvments to try to reduce the limitations of the design in one way or another, mainly the inherent inaccuracy from a desgn that is built around reliability, ease of use, and cheap easy manufacture.

The caliber is also an important consideration. The original 7.62X39 fires a .311 cal 8gram(123gr) slug at about 2,300fps for 1400FPE, it is a very popular and versatile caliber renowned for good penetration and close range performance. Recoil ia about as light as a 30cal can be, and due to the agressive taper, the rounds feed very reliably. The downside if the low velocity that leads to a lot of drop at ranges over 200 yards, and the relatively poor selection of good loads and components, especially compared to .308 dia bullets. Cheap steel cased commercial ammo and some surplus are available with a few brass cased premium loads available.

5.45X39- uses a .220" bullet with weights ranging from 50-70gr pushed to 2,800-3,000FPS with about 1,000FPE, about the same as heavy 5.56NATO loads, but uses a case of slightly smaller dimentions than 7.62X39. It was designed after witnessing the disproportionately deadly performance of 5.56NATO in Vietnam, although it does not have much of a weight or capacity advantage over 7.62X39, it's terminal effects are legendary, nicknamed the "poison bullet" it's long narrow profile yaws quickly, causing a lot of tissue damage. The recoil is light, and the trajectory flat compared to 7.62X39, and it performs similarly to 5.56 NATO. There is hardly any factory loads for it, but surplus is cheap and plentiful, although corrosive. Wolf and Barnaul make good commercial loads, and Hornady just brought out a V-max load using steel cases. The bullet is an odd size, and reloading components are all but unknown for this caliber.

5.56X45- Some rifles are chambered in 5.56 NATO either during the Domestic build, or in the original format(Galil, Saiga sporters). The .224 cal 40-90gr 2700-3400FPS loads vary widely, and ammo is plentiful in most every form including reloading components, although expensive and often backordered now. The AK action beats the hell out of the cases, and you will likely loose a lot of brass to damage if you reload. Mags for 5.56 AK variants can be hard to find, and expensive. Due to the popularity of the saigas some mags have built in cartridge guides, some designed for other AKs dont, and Galils use a different mag entirely, so you have to be careful the mag is designed for your rifle.

There are numerous other calibers some AK pattern rifles and pistols are chambered in, .410 and 12ga, 7.62NATO, 9mm, 6.8 and so on, some are factory builds, some are from small builders or individuals doing the conversions, but the 7.62X39, 5.45X39 and 5.56X45 are the most popular.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

I have alot of AK variants and can say a good bit about them, frankly with the execption of those monkeyed by CAI (and most of them are good to ok) almost any off the shelf AK will function fine and often are more accurate than people give them credit for. There are a couple distinguishing factors:

1. Fit and finish
2 Metal, particularly barrels
3. Assembly
4. Milled or stamped

Galils, frankly these are very nicely finished guns, accurate but usually stamped with some cracking issues (mostly benign) in the early years. I missed out on a Hadar several years ago when I selected my Valmet instead. Overall they are cracked up as the holy grail due to their scarcity. AK based but most components dont interchange. I only give them a B overall but my experience is limited.

Valmets, everyone I have seen has been milled though I do believe they made stamped as well. Extremely good fit and finish, great accuract for AKs a variety of calibers. I have a Hunter in .308 and it is one of my favorite guns, I need to find the correct scope Mount for it. A

Bulgarian (Arsenal and others): The best bulgies were the circa 93-95 guns that had all Bulgarian parts in them and were just imported by Arsenal. Finish was a B+ being some sort of paint but it looked good and holds up as long as you dont use some sort of odd solvent on it. Machining was great and accuracy is incredible. I have one I bought back in college that shoots 1" at 100 yards, to bad it has some stupid aftermarket scope mount on it. I would like to get another one someday if I find one for what they are worth. Later arsenal guns are another story mix of stamped and milled, assembly varies from perfect to what the hell were they drinking. Reliability suffers in some (bad feed ramps) and they use some tapco-esc parts for compliance. That said I have a SAM5 that is an incredible shooter and my go to gun. If I get the chance I would like to find another one to safe queen and build this one out (e.g., factory optics rail which it lacks), replace the guts with forged components etc, have the front sights double checked by a smith for straightness (even though they are pretty good). Or get an SLR106 wiht straight sights and do the above ARSENAL WARNING: They make great guns, however many of the SLR106's had really bad assemblies the most noted are canted sights, the finishes disolve readily, and their customer service is non-existent. Buy with caution and preferably in person. Good selection of calibers 5.56, 5.45, 7.62. I dont know anything about their new Saiga based guns and I find it interesting they are switching from Bulgy parts, they appear to be a very good buy. Early Bulgarian A- , later bulgarian B

Romanian: About the same as later commercial chinese, new parts guns have alot of issues with assemblies but when you get a good one they are just fine. Century guns have ugly dremmeled out recievers. Stamped receivers. I love my Romak II. Romanian assembled B- Century assembled C-

Chinese (Norinco/Polytech): Later Mak90s suffered in quality but the earlier preban guns and some of the low volume macks were very very underated. Steel rusts quickly, finishes vary greatly. Assembly is usually pretty close to perfect. Relatively accurate and early guns have decent triggers. Frankly, I see alot of Mak90s at gunshows at fair prices ($450) still that are a steel for someone looking to build something up and laugh when I see people walking out with WASRs instead. Love my AKM47S sile gun and my ARMCO both some of the best of the breed. Earlier B later C+

Yugos early real yugo gorgeous never pass up a Mitchel M76! The parts kits guns M70s I have seen have been variable with mixed finishes and quality of assembly. I dont have alot to base it on but I would give most a C+

 

[scottese]

FPS, this is pretty much what you need to know. Next time we catch up, I can bring my Romy if you want to check it out. Most say that these are the bottom of the barrel, I'll let you decide for yourself. Mostly I think it is the ugly laminated stock and the cosmoline all over them that makes 'em look ugly when most see them in the gun shop. Clean it, and slap on some nicer furniture and you are GTG. I have a few I can probably get a hold of if you want one. They come with bayonet, scope mount, sling,and some other crap.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

Oh and what I forgot to mention is that practically stamped versus milled is overblown.

Milled guns are heavier, may be a little more accurate, and certainly rarer and more expensive to make. However for almost any circumstance the stamped guns perform just as well and are much lighter making carry easier.

Dont be afraid to go stamped

 

[G O B]

The Saigas are brand new Russian Ishmash arsenal made (where Michael works). Get on and restore it. All the others are disassembled used or new guns reassembled on USA receivers.

 

[Dan44]

I have or had many pre-ban AK's. Hungarian, Clayco, Poly Tech Legend and Norinco. And post-ban Romanian (CUR II's) Bulgarian (105A1) and Maadi. If I was gonna get another it would be the Arsenal SLR 107F. I really like that folding stock. If fixed stock, the SGL20 is a good deal.

 

[smores]

I've only ever really been impressed with Arsenal and Saiga AKs. All other ones use cheap parts in one area or another or just seem cheesy. Saigas are pretty good but in their factory form, the buttstock especially seems cheesy. The checkering on the grips is molded in and doesn't give much purchase.

I've seen a few of the older Romanian SARs and the AK22s that were pretty nice. Although every Romanian rifle I've seen has had sloppily electro-penciled serial numbers and mfgr/caliber markings.

For the money Arsenal is where it's at. Especially with the sales they've been having recently.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

I've only ever really been impressed with Arsenal and Saiga AKs. All other ones use cheap parts in one area or another or just seem cheesy. Saigas are pretty good but in their factory form, the buttstock especially seems cheesy. The checkering on the grips is molded in and doesn't give much purchase.

I've seen a few of the older Romanian SARs and the AK22s that were pretty nice. Although every Romanian rifle I've seen has had sloppily electro-penciled serial numbers and mfgr/caliber markings.

For the money Arsenal is where it's at. Especially with the sales they've been having recently.

I would agree with you, where you get to look at it the Arsenals are good guns, just choose wisely. I suspect they are running alot of specials due to the bad economy and a black-eye in quality. Between the two they probably wont be around long, that said if I get to see a reasonably priced SLR106 in person its MINE MINE MINE!