Anybody own a 20 inch muzzleloader?

[kstone803]

So my latest quest on guns I probably don't need but have an odd desire to buy is a 20 inch barreled muzzleloader. Anybody have one that short or experience with one? Seems there aren't many companies that make barrels that short so I may be hunting for a while. Figure it would be a handy and light deer gun especially since my spots don't have shots over 100 yards or so.

 

[toppkatt]

I would think 20" may be too short to get efficient combustion of the black powder while it is still contained within the barrel. Guess it kind of depends on the load (grains and fineness of powder (FG, FFG, FFFFG) you are using. Obviously you will be losing velocity and getting a huge muzzle flash by using a short barrel.

Best I can suggest is to check efficiency by loading and shooting over a piece of paper or cloth and gather all the unburned grains then keep reducing the load until the amount of unburned powder leaving the barrel is minimal (never going to be zero in that short of a barrel, IMO) Some did this 'back in the day' so they didn't waste powder, by loading more than the rifle would burn, Considering they had to pack all their powder with them over mountains while hunting either by horse, mule or backpack wasting powder by having it expelled unburned was wasted money and weight hauled around.

Probably also somewhat dependent on the caliber of the rifle. Using a shorter barrel you are reducing the sight radius thus decreasing theoretical accuracy based on that aspect of shooting (there's probably more than one reason Quigley used such a long barrel). I shoot a few two band 'carbines' (Fayetteville and 1863 Remington) and they are still about 32" long. If 20" was practical, I'd think more rifles manufactured during the heyday of black powder rifles, would have been made with a shorter barrel then that; as barrels required more raw material and took more time to drill and rifle a longer barrel.

Now some of the breech loaders (Sharps, Spencer, etc.) had shorter barrels but for the most part they didn't use very large charges compared to the muzzle loading rifles of the day. Maybe one of those might fit your needs?

I wish you luck and hope you find your answer. Check back and let us know what you find.

 

[Threeband]

I have a .577 Enfield Royal Artillery Carbine, usually called a Musketoon by skirmishes. It has a 24" barrel, and is very compact.

It's intended for minie balls, so it can be loaded and fired rapidly: 3 aimed shots per minute is normal.

Some people use them for deer hunting, but I think the Pattern 1858 Two Band rifle is more popular. It has a 33" barrel, but is otherwise identical to the Musketoon.

Remember, a muzzleloader has no "action" so a Carbine with a 24" barrel is probably about the length of a bolt action with a 18" barrel.

Here are photos of one just like it:

Parker Hale Enfield Royal Artillery Carbine 577 : 942418005

Buy a Parker Hale Enfield Royal Artillery Carbine .577 Muskatoon ,22 barrel,excellent condition with facto for sale by First Stop Gun on GunsAmerica.com the best online marketplace for buying and selling semi auto pistols, firearms, accessories, and collectibles : 942418005

www.gunsamerica.com

(I see they're saying 22" barrel, but I'm sure it's 24".)

 

[kstone803]

Guess I should've added I'm looking for an inline with 209 primers. Mainly going to use it to hunt deer. I currently use blackhorn 209 in my CVA with .45 xtp bullets in a sabot with very good results. I've used pyrodex and real black powder before but would prefer some overlap with my existing components if possible.

 

[Threeband]

Get something that shoots minie balls and uses musket caps. That's a manly rifle. Three aimed shots per minute. A 505 grain minie ball will bust brush and drop a deer. If there's any doubt, you can finish them with the bayonet.

Inline-shminline. That ain't no muzzleloader.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I have a couple of T/c scout carbines
They have 23 1/2" barrels.
Because a portion of the barrel goes into the frame they are quite compact and fast handling for woods deer shooting.
They made a pistol too that was known as a Patriot that sold here and there but were not as popular as the carbine.

 

[outrider58]

Guess I should've added I'm looking for an inline with 209 primers. Mainly going to use it to hunt deer. I currently use blackhorn 209 in my CVA with .45 xtp bullets in a sabot with very good results. I've used pyrodex and real black powder before but would prefer some overlap with my existing components if possible.

Yeah, if you're using 209, no need to use barrel eating corrosive powders.

I don't see a 20" barrel giving you the velocity you want.

 

[Inigoes]

CVA makes the Optima pistols that can shoot 100 grains, but the barrels are 10 inches.

CVA Optima™ V2 Pistol - .50 Cal - PP221SM

CVA® Optima™ V2 Pistol PP221SM - .50 Caliber Break-Action Muzzleloader Pistol, Black & Stainless. Best Prices, Fast Shipping, Expert Advice!

muzzle-loaders.com

You might be able to add a stock to one. A black powder SBR. lol

 

[outrider58]

CVA makes the Optima pistols that can shoot 100 grains, but the barrels are 10 inches.

CVA Optima™ V2 Pistol - .50 Cal - PP221SM

CVA® Optima™ V2 Pistol PP221SM - .50 Caliber Break-Action Muzzleloader Pistol, Black & Stainless. Best Prices, Fast Shipping, Expert Advice!

muzzle-loaders.com

You might be able to add a stock to one. A black powder SBR. lol

This is where all that muzzle velocity/energy turns to crap.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Doco is correct , The T/C Scout with 23.5 in bbl , exactly matches the external dimensions of a 20 inch bbl levergun . So , a ML with a 24 inch bbl is probably what you're visualizing .

Yes , everyone is right about the ballistic and sighting advantages of regular length ML .

But , if Kstone * Wants * a 20 in ML , no reason not to , as long as he's vaguely realistic about the tradeoffs . It will still hit and harvest Bambi at traditional Muzzleloader distances .

 

[Doco Overboard]

When ever I see a decent Scout carbine I want to buy it and I need another ML rifle like I need the virus.
A Mowry/ Ethan Allen or under hammer buggy rifle is another good one if you can locate a good one.

I doubt the average person could load accurately enough field shooting, to tell the difference in velocity or terminal performance from a Scout carbine rather a new Englander Hawken or other Tc product minus the
Patriot pistol.
Most people more than likely overload them now that I really think of it and are too lazy to do proper maintenance for clean up after shooting anyway.
A nice sharp crack is what you want to hear regardless of the system or even propellant/proji choice for that matter actually.
MMP sabots will fix all of that and a projie thats as close to bore size as you can get when shooting saboted bullets if you dont care to manage your load chain for efficiency or for deer/ pie plate shooting.

 

[kstone803]

That TC scout rifle looks very interesting. After some DDGing it appears they don't make them anymore so I'll have to keep an eye out for a used one.

I understand I'll be giving up velocity but I'm sure it will still kill Bambi at 50 yards. Could be a project to buy a cheaper 24 or 26 inch and start sawing inches off and see where accuracy goes.

 

[BFMIN]

The closest I have is as CVA made 24" percussion Hawken carbine in .50.
Everyone told me I needed really long barrels to, so I was leery of it simply because of the short length.
I actually found it very handy & perfectly accurate for hunting with a PRB, rather than "conicals", but that's because of the "universal" twist rate.

 

[Inigoes]

That TC scout rifle looks very interesting. After some DDGing it appears they don't make them anymore so I'll have to keep an eye out for a used one.

I understand I'll be giving up velocity but I'm sure it will still kill Bambi at 50 yards. Could be a project to buy a cheaper 24 or 26 inch and start sawing inches off and see where accuracy goes.

CVA Wolf inline rifles are cheap enough to do that.

 

[Slackdaddy]

So my latest quest on guns I probably don't need but have an odd desire to buy is a 20 inch barreled muzzleloader. Anybody have one that short or experience with one? Seems there aren't many companies that make barrels that short so I may be hunting for a while. Figure it would be a handy and light deer gun especially since my spots don't have shots over 100 yards or so.

I have 2 H&R "sidekick" MLers that I cut down.
I will have to measure them, but I believe the green one is ~17-18" and the S.S. is ~20"
Scott's cut the barrels for me.

I load both with 90gr of BH209 with a PR Bullet 300gr Elite (all soft lead) sabot round.
I sight 1" high at 50 yards, and they both group good at 100 yards, an inch or 2 low.
I notice NO muzzle flash shooting even at dusk.
Both guns are devistating on deer and excellent tree stand guns.

The Green shorty is my goto, favorite hunting gun.

 

[kstone803]

I have 2 H&R "sidekick" MLers that I cut down.
I will have to measure them, but I believe the green one is ~17-18" and the S.S. is ~20"
Scott's cut the barrels for me.

I load both with 90gr of BH209 with a PR Bullet 300gr Elite (all soft lead) sabot round.
I sight 1" high at 50 yards, and they both group good at 100 yards, an inch or 2 low.
I notice NO muzzle flash shooting even at dusk.
Both guns are devistating on deer and excellent tree stand guns.

The Green shorty is my goto, favorite hunting gun.

View attachment 396891

View attachment 396892

That's what I'm talking about. Those little rifles look awesome! Maybe chopping one is the answer.

 

[Mini14tac]

I own an early 50 caliber T/C White Mountain Carbine with a 21 inch barrel with 1:20 twist. Extremely accurate with 90 grains of Pyrodex Select and a sabot 240 grain Hornady 44 cal pistol bullet. It is a bitch to load though.

 

[Brickman301]

I have a cabela’s Hawkins carbine that I bought in the mid 90’s, it has a 21” barrel in 50 cal.
The shorter barrel definitely makes it handy, and using 90grains of FFFG and maxi hunter bullets, it knocks deer dead! This little muzzleloader has probably killed more deer for me and my family, than all of our rifles combined.

 

[Brickman301]

Wh
A Mowry/ Ethan Allen or under hammer buggy rifle is another good one if you can locate a good one.

I have a Mowrey Rifle in 45 that I might let go if someone is interested. I got it in a trade years ago and have never shot it. Neat rifle for sure, all brass frame and a heavy octagon barrel. Holds nice!

 

[rgramjet]

I am a huge fan of the CVA Wolf. Inexpensive, accurate, handy and simple. I put a Burris 3x9 on it and does everything I require from a muzzleloader.

Awesome value.