I am just wondering on how many people have been audited by the BATF either here on the forum or someone they know, this is for C&R only. I am not worried I have my book, I was just wondering
BATF C&R Audit
- Thread starter sbarber7973
- Start date
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I don't know if I've ever heard of one. I'm sure there have been but they are rare. Don't worry though, when Obama gets in I'm sure we'll all be on a yearly cycle like the dealers are. The idea of an annual ATF "arsenal license" for anyone with more than 10 guns or a thousand rounds of ammo has long been a goal of the Schumer and Feinstein crowd, bills to that effect have been introduced in the past.
jorjohn11
Active Member
Had mine about 4 years now and no audit. I talked to an 01 FFL that said the BATF has a point system for signaling an audit. There were several things that cause you to get a point one of which is selling a firearm while you have an 03 license. One of the questions on the form when you renew is how many have you sold while you've had you license. I don't know how many points will cause an audit.
Maryland Hunter
Ultimate Member
- Feb 1, 2008
- 3,194
Before I got mine, one on another board had been audited, but he said it wasn't bad at all. As a matter of fact, he said that the agent knew quite a bit about the firearms that he was looking at, and gave him quite a bit of historical information on them. It sounded quite informal, wasn't a surprise visit or anything, and they spent some time just sitting around talking guns for a while.
MH
MH
coinboy
Yeah, Sweet Lemonade.
I've never been audited, yet. It makes no difference to me. All my records are up to date and I could talk the agents ear off about guns all day. If that doesn't scare the agent away I don't know what will! 
It would be interesting to load up all of my C&R guns and take them to the ATF parking lot for the inspection. I would just love to see people driving down the road and looking in my little Mini Cooper with firearms packed to the ceiling! I don't think the cops would be too happy but there is nothing illegal about it. Well, actually now that I think about it: There isn't an exception in the law for transporting a handgun for an inspection, is there? Novus?
It would be interesting to load up all of my C&R guns and take them to the ATF parking lot for the inspection. I would just love to see people driving down the road and looking in my little Mini Cooper with firearms packed to the ceiling! I don't think the cops would be too happy but there is nothing illegal about it. Well, actually now that I think about it: There isn't an exception in the law for transporting a handgun for an inspection, is there? Novus?
coinboy
Yeah, Sweet Lemonade.
http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm
The Compliance Inspection.
When a BATF inspector shows up for a compliance inspection, require credentials to be displayed by everyone present and note the full name of the inspector(s) in writing. Never permit a special agent or a state or local or non-BATF federal official to participate in a compliance inspection. These individuals have no authority under the inspection laws, and are there for some different (and more ominous) reason. A state official might have independent state-law authority to conduct an inspection or investigation, but he has no right to do it in tandem with a BATF compliance inspection. You should require other inspectors or investigators to get in line so that you can deal with them at a separate time. If they refuse to leave, call the sheriff and swear out a trespassing complaint. If a BATF special agent, a firearms specialist from BATF's Technology Branch in Washington (part of the criminal enforcement branch), or other criminal law enforcement type is present, this is not an ordinary compliance inspection and you should immediately terminate it, direct the individuals to leave and contact legal counsel.
RULE ONE -- and let him bring his own copy machine. Also remember that he has no right to use your electricity. The inspector is legally entitled to inspect all your required records, your business premises, and your firearms inventory. He is legally entitled to inspect nothing else. You should not permit inspection of non-required records unless there is a satisfactory explanation of why it is desired
Curio and relic (collector) licensees have the legal option of bringing their records and firearms to the nearest designated BATF office for a compliance inspection. Although I am unaware of any compliance inspection of a collector, this is an option to be considered seriously.
The simple truth is that you never want a BATF employee in your home if it can be avoided.
In summary, the firearms regulatory process does not assume you are a criminal, but rather seeks to ensure that dealers generally are complying with the requirements of the law. If bona fide, the process does not require invocation of your various rights to notice, counsel, warning, non-self-incrimination, etc., which all come into play when you are the target of a criminal investigation. Unfortunately, BATF sometimes attempts to avoid these constitutional "inconveniences" by illegally using the access of civil inspectors to further a criminal investigation without alerting the targeted dealer. You should never cooperate in such a subterfuge.
You should accommodate the inspector by making copies of any records desired (within reason). Never permit original records (or firearms or other property) to be removed from the premises without a summons, subpoena or court order, and without seeking legal counsel. The inspector has no power of seizure and may attempt to bluff his way into removing original records or may try to obtain your consent. Do not be bluffed and do not consent. Inspections should be conducted on your premises. (If you store firearms off premises, the inspector is also entitled to inspect such storage facilities.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Raid.
This is an event which means you are in deep, serious. It is the execution of a judicially-issued search and seizure warrant (and occasionally also an arrest warrant) by BATF special agents, frequently accompanied by agents of other federal or local agencies, on premises owned, occupied or inhabited by you.
When a raid team shows up at your premises and announces (usually by breaking down your door, sometimes by killing your dogs and throwing flash bang grenades at your women and children) that they have a federal search warrant, you must instantly do several things. You must first of all mentally assimilate the fact that they are law officers rather than a rampaging motorcycle gang (which they often resemble in both appearance and behavior). Having identified them as law rather than outlaw, you must freeze in place in a non-threatening posture and attempt to stabilize the situation until some of their law-enforcement adrenalin (the most dangerous drug on the street) has bled off. If only a search warrant is involved, you must then recover your wits sufficiently to do the following:
(A) Try to note and record the identities of as many participants as possible, by name, agency, badge number, and physical description.
(B) Ask for a copy of the warrant.
(C) Disable -- not unplug, disable -- your telephones and fax machines.
(D) Gather your family, children and pets and leave the premises.
(E) Call your lawyer.
You may be prevented from doing some or all of the above things by legally illiterate agents, but that will simply lay the foundation for your own day in court.
A federal search warrant authorizes only the search of a specified premises and only the seizure of specifically described items. Corollary to the execution of a warrant, the law permits the agents to make a forcible entry if that becomes necessary after knocking and announcing their identity and purpose, to control the premises, and to take reasonable precautions for their own safety -- such as a pat down for weapons of those persons present and assigning an agent to watch over and accompany anyone moving about on the premises. The law authorizes the agents to prevent the destruction of evidence or contraband and it protects them against being assaulted or interfered with. It is a serious federal crime to assault a federal officer or to obstruct execution of the warrant. Don't turn a possible later indictment into a sure one. Never assist the raiding party in locating the items described in the warrant. They have the right to search, but not the right to find. Do not open locked compartments, safes or rooms for them or provide them with keys or combinations. Do not talk to the raiding officers other than to request identification and a copy of the warrant. Resist the compulsion to show what a good guy you are; these are not your friends and they are not there to help you.
A search warrant does not authorize agents to arrest you or anyone else on the premises (although assaulting the agents or forcibly interfering with the execution of the warrant will justify a warrantless arrest) and it does not authorize them to handcuff you, restrict you to a particular place or prevent you from leaving.
You have a perfect right to leave the premises and should do so immediately. If you are physically prevented from leaving, you have just been falsely arrested in violation of the Fourth Amendment and will have your recovery later in court as well as taking some of the other retaliatory measures promised above. You must get yourself and your family out of the house for several reasons:
(A) to avoid the personal insult, humiliation, provocation and indignities which many agents seem to enjoy;
(B) to avoid a potential life-threatening situation; and
(C) to avoid creating evidence against yourself (RULE ONE). There is no useful purpose your remaining on the premises can serve; if the agents are going to plant evidence or destroy property, they will do it whether or not you are present.
You will need as much information about identities, badge numbers and descriptions as you can manage in the minutes before you leave. These will be useful later when you assert or defend your rights. But they are not a reason to delay leaving the premises promptly. You are legally entitled to a copy of the warrant, but do not remain on the premises if you are refused.
You should disable your telephones and fax machines before leaving in order to prevent the agents from illegally seizing evidence (calls and faxes) which might come in while they are on the premises. Such items did not exist when the warrant was signed and cannot possibly be covered by the warrant. Their seizure will probably therefore be illegal; but it is better to prevent such seizures from even happening. If you are physically prevented from disabling your own property, go somewhere else and place incoming calls to all your lines and keep the circuits open.
Now, call your lawyer.
The Compliance Inspection.
When a BATF inspector shows up for a compliance inspection, require credentials to be displayed by everyone present and note the full name of the inspector(s) in writing. Never permit a special agent or a state or local or non-BATF federal official to participate in a compliance inspection. These individuals have no authority under the inspection laws, and are there for some different (and more ominous) reason. A state official might have independent state-law authority to conduct an inspection or investigation, but he has no right to do it in tandem with a BATF compliance inspection. You should require other inspectors or investigators to get in line so that you can deal with them at a separate time. If they refuse to leave, call the sheriff and swear out a trespassing complaint. If a BATF special agent, a firearms specialist from BATF's Technology Branch in Washington (part of the criminal enforcement branch), or other criminal law enforcement type is present, this is not an ordinary compliance inspection and you should immediately terminate it, direct the individuals to leave and contact legal counsel.
RULE ONE -- and let him bring his own copy machine. Also remember that he has no right to use your electricity. The inspector is legally entitled to inspect all your required records, your business premises, and your firearms inventory. He is legally entitled to inspect nothing else. You should not permit inspection of non-required records unless there is a satisfactory explanation of why it is desired
Curio and relic (collector) licensees have the legal option of bringing their records and firearms to the nearest designated BATF office for a compliance inspection. Although I am unaware of any compliance inspection of a collector, this is an option to be considered seriously.
The simple truth is that you never want a BATF employee in your home if it can be avoided.
In summary, the firearms regulatory process does not assume you are a criminal, but rather seeks to ensure that dealers generally are complying with the requirements of the law. If bona fide, the process does not require invocation of your various rights to notice, counsel, warning, non-self-incrimination, etc., which all come into play when you are the target of a criminal investigation. Unfortunately, BATF sometimes attempts to avoid these constitutional "inconveniences" by illegally using the access of civil inspectors to further a criminal investigation without alerting the targeted dealer. You should never cooperate in such a subterfuge.
You should accommodate the inspector by making copies of any records desired (within reason). Never permit original records (or firearms or other property) to be removed from the premises without a summons, subpoena or court order, and without seeking legal counsel. The inspector has no power of seizure and may attempt to bluff his way into removing original records or may try to obtain your consent. Do not be bluffed and do not consent. Inspections should be conducted on your premises. (If you store firearms off premises, the inspector is also entitled to inspect such storage facilities.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The Raid.
This is an event which means you are in deep, serious. It is the execution of a judicially-issued search and seizure warrant (and occasionally also an arrest warrant) by BATF special agents, frequently accompanied by agents of other federal or local agencies, on premises owned, occupied or inhabited by you.
When a raid team shows up at your premises and announces (usually by breaking down your door, sometimes by killing your dogs and throwing flash bang grenades at your women and children) that they have a federal search warrant, you must instantly do several things. You must first of all mentally assimilate the fact that they are law officers rather than a rampaging motorcycle gang (which they often resemble in both appearance and behavior). Having identified them as law rather than outlaw, you must freeze in place in a non-threatening posture and attempt to stabilize the situation until some of their law-enforcement adrenalin (the most dangerous drug on the street) has bled off. If only a search warrant is involved, you must then recover your wits sufficiently to do the following:
(A) Try to note and record the identities of as many participants as possible, by name, agency, badge number, and physical description.
(B) Ask for a copy of the warrant.
(C) Disable -- not unplug, disable -- your telephones and fax machines.
(D) Gather your family, children and pets and leave the premises.
(E) Call your lawyer.
You may be prevented from doing some or all of the above things by legally illiterate agents, but that will simply lay the foundation for your own day in court.
A federal search warrant authorizes only the search of a specified premises and only the seizure of specifically described items. Corollary to the execution of a warrant, the law permits the agents to make a forcible entry if that becomes necessary after knocking and announcing their identity and purpose, to control the premises, and to take reasonable precautions for their own safety -- such as a pat down for weapons of those persons present and assigning an agent to watch over and accompany anyone moving about on the premises. The law authorizes the agents to prevent the destruction of evidence or contraband and it protects them against being assaulted or interfered with. It is a serious federal crime to assault a federal officer or to obstruct execution of the warrant. Don't turn a possible later indictment into a sure one. Never assist the raiding party in locating the items described in the warrant. They have the right to search, but not the right to find. Do not open locked compartments, safes or rooms for them or provide them with keys or combinations. Do not talk to the raiding officers other than to request identification and a copy of the warrant. Resist the compulsion to show what a good guy you are; these are not your friends and they are not there to help you.
A search warrant does not authorize agents to arrest you or anyone else on the premises (although assaulting the agents or forcibly interfering with the execution of the warrant will justify a warrantless arrest) and it does not authorize them to handcuff you, restrict you to a particular place or prevent you from leaving.
You have a perfect right to leave the premises and should do so immediately. If you are physically prevented from leaving, you have just been falsely arrested in violation of the Fourth Amendment and will have your recovery later in court as well as taking some of the other retaliatory measures promised above. You must get yourself and your family out of the house for several reasons:
(A) to avoid the personal insult, humiliation, provocation and indignities which many agents seem to enjoy;
(B) to avoid a potential life-threatening situation; and
(C) to avoid creating evidence against yourself (RULE ONE). There is no useful purpose your remaining on the premises can serve; if the agents are going to plant evidence or destroy property, they will do it whether or not you are present.
You will need as much information about identities, badge numbers and descriptions as you can manage in the minutes before you leave. These will be useful later when you assert or defend your rights. But they are not a reason to delay leaving the premises promptly. You are legally entitled to a copy of the warrant, but do not remain on the premises if you are refused.
You should disable your telephones and fax machines before leaving in order to prevent the agents from illegally seizing evidence (calls and faxes) which might come in while they are on the premises. Such items did not exist when the warrant was signed and cannot possibly be covered by the warrant. Their seizure will probably therefore be illegal; but it is better to prevent such seizures from even happening. If you are physically prevented from disabling your own property, go somewhere else and place incoming calls to all your lines and keep the circuits open.
Now, call your lawyer.
coinboy
Yeah, Sweet Lemonade.
This person was audited in Maryland:
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-answer-40/17204-c-r-license.html
I have a C&R and had an inspection while living in Garrett County, Maryland, courtesy of the Baltimore field office. The young lady conducting the inspection told me that it was primarily a training session for her, that her supervisor wanted all of his staff to be familiar with the differences in requirements for C&R licensees.
She called and made an appointment and arrived precisely at the agreed time. Essentially, it was a two part inspection. First part being a review of applicable regulations and review of my "bound book." The second part was an actual inventory of all C&R weapons against the bound book entries. She no interest in any non-C&R guns. She randomly chose one entry, a VZ52 that I had purchased on Gunbroker and "ran" it through their system. This of course rattled the person I bought it from in Florida when they contacted him and made sure that he had the required copy of my license.
Under the regs, I could have elected to have the inspection in the Baltimore field office instead of my home, but I was 185 miles from that office, a 3 1/2 hour trip each way. All in all, it took about two hours and was essentially painless. The young lady was personable while maintaining her professionalism.
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-answer-40/17204-c-r-license.html
I have a C&R and had an inspection while living in Garrett County, Maryland, courtesy of the Baltimore field office. The young lady conducting the inspection told me that it was primarily a training session for her, that her supervisor wanted all of his staff to be familiar with the differences in requirements for C&R licensees.
She called and made an appointment and arrived precisely at the agreed time. Essentially, it was a two part inspection. First part being a review of applicable regulations and review of my "bound book." The second part was an actual inventory of all C&R weapons against the bound book entries. She no interest in any non-C&R guns. She randomly chose one entry, a VZ52 that I had purchased on Gunbroker and "ran" it through their system. This of course rattled the person I bought it from in Florida when they contacted him and made sure that he had the required copy of my license.
Under the regs, I could have elected to have the inspection in the Baltimore field office instead of my home, but I was 185 miles from that office, a 3 1/2 hour trip each way. All in all, it took about two hours and was essentially painless. The young lady was personable while maintaining her professionalism.
But of course you were headed for the range! Get a collector's license - exemption for moving your arms for display/showing - public or private.I've never been audited, yet. It makes no difference to me. All my records are up to date and I could talk the agents ear off about guns all day. If that doesn't scare the agent away I don't know what will!
It would be interesting to load up all of my C&R guns and take them to the ATF parking lot for the inspection. I would just love to see people driving down the road and looking in my little Mini Cooper with firearms packed to the ceiling! I don't think the cops would be too happy but there is nothing illegal about it. Well, actually now that I think about it: There isn't an exception in the law for transporting a handgun for an inspection, is there? Novus?
Batf Audit
I had two lovely female agents from Batf come to my house couple years ago from the Baltimore Field Office(I live in Bowie)and I don't own any c&r firearms, I just had the license. They came in, wanted to see my guns, where they were kept and asked to see my safe. I showed them, they left a card, and were gone. I have been spooked about buying any c&r guns even though i renewed my permit recently.
I had two lovely female agents from Batf come to my house couple years ago from the Baltimore Field Office(I live in Bowie)and I don't own any c&r firearms, I just had the license. They came in, wanted to see my guns, where they were kept and asked to see my safe. I showed them, they left a card, and were gone. I have been spooked about buying any c&r guns even though i renewed my permit recently.
They are supposed to notify you there is an audit beforehand and you have the option of taking everything to them instead of comming to your house. It sounds to me like they did not know their own rules. If they showed up at my door for an audit out of the blue like that, I would have told them to go back and do it right without letting them in.
.....also, an 01 FFL has a safe storage requirement, but I do not think an 03 has the same requirement upon them.
trapture
Surplus Rifle Lover
The only story I have heard personally was my friends gunsmith was visited by BATF during the DC Sniper Incident. They asked for a AR15 lower by serial number he went took out of his safe and had them inspect it. They left and left a card. He didn't tell them the fact that he had different uppers for that lower.
Batf audit
They did notify me that there were coming. I did'nt want her to see my safe, since i never bought any c&r guns i couldnt see why they even wanted to come. But since i knew i bought my guns legally and didnt have anything to hide, i showed her my guns. She barely even looked in, im sure she had no idea what she was looking at. She or the other agent seemed harmless, wetr not armed that i could, and i don't they were looking for anything particular.
They did notify me that there were coming. I did'nt want her to see my safe, since i never bought any c&r guns i couldnt see why they even wanted to come. But since i knew i bought my guns legally and didnt have anything to hide, i showed her my guns. She barely even looked in, im sure she had no idea what she was looking at. She or the other agent seemed harmless, wetr not armed that i could, and i don't they were looking for anything particular.
Jim Keenan
Active Member
- Aug 16, 2008
- 259
Some states require dealers to have security (safe, burglar alarm, barred windows) but
AFAIK, under federal law, there is no requirement that a licensed dealer, licensed importer or licensed collector have a safe, or any other security devices. Common sense indicates that a safe is a good idea, especially for handguns and automatic weapons, but there is no requirement in either the law or the CFR.
Jim
AFAIK, under federal law, there is no requirement that a licensed dealer, licensed importer or licensed collector have a safe, or any other security devices. Common sense indicates that a safe is a good idea, especially for handguns and automatic weapons, but there is no requirement in either the law or the CFR.
Jim
I'm next...I just recieved a call from a nice young lady from BATF. She should be out next Friday. I told her to call me this Thursday to confirm and she left a phone number and e-mail addy to contact her if I need to. I have everything in order so no worries. I only have a few C&R's and wonder why me? I will ask her what thier criteria is on choosing who to inspect when I see her. Any advice?...
alucard0822
For great Justice
Every time I hear about an audit, it seems like they always send an attractive female agent or two to inspect your collection,
I wonder if she would consider it in poor taste to light some candles, put on some Barry White, Meet her in a velour bath robe and have a bottle of champagne in a bucket of ice next to the safe
I guess we will find out if coinboy ever gets audited
YOu have the option of going to the nearest field office....but if let's say they ask you to bring your collection instead of just your records and that field office is in downtown DC, I wonder what kind of reaction there would be.
I always wondered about any kind of safe requirement. I only have a couple of guns (currently) and haven't found a safe i like/ would fit in the room. Good to know i'm legal
boule
Ultimate Member
YOu have the option of going to the nearest field office....but if let's say they ask you to bring your collection instead of just your records and that field office is in downtown DC, I wonder what kind of reaction there would be.
Ask them for written Instructions and present those to any cop you might encounter (together with a souvenir photo, a roll of toilet paper and some spare pants).
Hmmm - sounds like the start of a porn movie
