Bound Book Templates Revisited

[Machodoc]

After checking out a number of software and template solutions, ultimately, I opted to go with something more formal. [...] Not only does it do away with the issue of printing/retaining loose sheets of paper, but I think it provides a more serious presentation if/when ATF requests to see my book:

Good points, and what you show meets the requirements and does look very professional. But the some of the same things that you like about it could also be negatives, too.

• If I make an error in an entry in mine, I just correct it and re-print that page.
• My handwriting isn't all that great, especially in small spaces, but I know that the printed font will be legible.
• I not only have my hard-copy of the bound book, but also a digital copy that I can search when I need to find something in a hurry. It also serves as a backup (and I periodically make backups to that, by date, too).
• The argument of a "serious presentation" is valid--but within limits. If the BATFE says you can keep it in a 3-ring or other style binder (and they do), you are meeting their requirements--and government bureaucrats are all about meeting requirements.
• They don't give extra credit for "fancy". I think they'd be more impressed with very legible entries than the type of book those entries are in ... so long as the book meets their requirements.
• The binder that I keep mine in is relatively similar in appearance to the book that you show. (Not sure why I said earlier that it's a "3-ring binder", but that's allowable, too.)**

**
Q: What is a “bound book?”
A: “bound book” is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.
[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]

 

[Alphabrew]

Mine is simple

 

[Dave91]

Here's the one I use. I do like some of the ones posted in this thread tgough too. I just keep mine in a three ring binder. http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=1286

 

[eruby]

Here's the one I use. I do like some of the ones posted in this thread tgough too. I just keep mine in a three ring binder.

http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=1286

Just like my sheet. And I also use a 3-ring binder with this on it:

 

[toolness1]

That's why I patterned the Excel and PDF format pages that I created after the following info. 'Way back when I was a newly-discharged veteran who was trying to go to college on an inadequate GI Bill, one of the many jobs I had was clearing customs for a machinery import company. I got along great with the U.S. Customs guys, but they were the most "by the book" folks on earth. You couldn't even use blue ink on the forms--it had to be black.

The easiest way to avoid problems with the government is to copy their forms exactly and make sure what you put on them is legible and complete ... without anything extra. If you want pics of your guns, etc., have a separate scrapbook that you use for that sort of stuff.

Note that the wording in (2) states, "The format required for the record (emphasis mine) ... is as follows:" It doesn't say the format that's suggested, recommended, preferred, or anything else of that sort. In government speak, "format required" means to do it exactly that way.

Now, you may never get audited, you may get audited and have the agent let it slide, or you may have them impressed with the kewl book that you got from Amazon ... but what will always be the last word on both sides of the issue is what's written in this excerpt.

Good points. I was a bit surprised when I found that out, and ended up completely redoing mine as a result.

You're right....best to always go by the book and take everything as literal.
On our government and EPA permits and regulations we always go by whether the agency uses the wording "shall" which means you WILL, or the word "should" which gives you a *small* amount of flexibility.

Sent from my XT901 using Tapatalk

 

[reverendbeer]

After checking out a number of software and template solutions, ultimately, I opted to go with something more formal. For $15 (inclusive of shipping), I got a properly bound book from RK Enterprises via ebay. Not only does it do away with the issue of printing/retaining loose sheets of paper, but I think it provides a more serious presentation if/when ATF requests to see my book:

Using that seal on an official document like that could suggest that the book is an official ATF-originated document. You toss that on an ATF agents desk, enjoy your microscopic and deeply in-depth examination of any and everything involved with you owning and/or storing a firearm. Not saying it's an ATF seal, but no need to throw gas on an open fire...

 

[fred333]

Using that seal on an official document like that could suggest that the book is an official ATF-originated document. You toss that on an ATF agents desk, enjoy your microscopic and deeply in-depth examination of any and everything involved with you owning and/or storing a firearm. Not saying it's an ATF seal, but no need to throw gas on an open fire...

First, the seal makes no inference--implicit or explicit--at being an official ATF document. Second, even if it did, that'd be an issue ATF would have to take up with the book's maker, RK Enterprises, not me.
I just think it'd show any ATF agent that I made a "best effort" to follow the letter of the law and that I take my responsibility serious enough to invest in a formal record book, as opposed to printed loose leaf pages even though the latter are fully compliant with the law. Again, it's not a matter of one being right and the other wrong; it's just a way to show my willingness to try to make their job as easy as possible.

 

[Sunir]

I don't think it really matters so long as the rules are being adhered to and the C&R Holder is 100% compliant. Under the FAR/CFR there is not much room for interpretation, a requirement is stated and the bound book and it's format and contents must meet said requirement. Any additional fields or heck if the darn thing had rainbows or unicorns on the front, all that is irrelevant.

 

[bkraft]

Eruby, and those that chimed in that they use the same form.... This is just FYI, but that form you are using is exactly the one toolness1 mentioned finding in a thread. That thread was a long time ago before many of the new posters we have now. It was Bigtdc's thread and he was the one audited.

The agent auditing him said everything must be entered across a single line. That form doesn't do that and she did make him redo his whole book.

Again, that's not here say, it happened to a member of this forum that shared the info with the rest of us. Most of us were using that format at the time.

If you want to keep your format, keep it. If you want to change it, change it. It's your book. But if your ever audited, you may be forced to redo it.

 

[Machodoc]

Any additional fields or heck if the darn thing had rainbows or unicorns on the front, all that is irrelevant.

What's on the cover probably is irrelevant, but additional fields on the sheets are not what the regs say. I don't have anything on the cover of my bound book.

Once again, the regulations--as they are stated--are what the BATFE agent is ultimately charged with enforcing, and what you are ultimately responsible for complying with. That's what it boils down to.

An individual agent may let something slide, or overlook something you did, but they don't have to. The safest approach is to go literally by the book, and I still maintain that what will impress an agent the most is that you followed the rules, your entries are complete and up to date, and what you entered is legible. It's not a science fair project being judged by the moms of 5th graders. Decorations don't mean a thing.

To be honest with you, I think the printed book with the seal on the pages, etc., was intended far more to impress potential buyers with its official look than any BATFE agent who might read it. Just a personal opinion, but I doubt they'd care a rat's pahtootie about that seal, one way or the other. If you want to impress them, make their job as easy as possible by having your entries easy to read and in the order specified.

 

[toolness1]

Eruby, and those that chimed in that they use the same form.... This is just FYI, but that form you are using is exactly the one toolness1 mentioned finding in a thread. That thread was a long time ago before many of the new posters we have now. It was Bigtdc's thread and he was the one audited.

The agent auditing him said everything must be entered across a single line. That form doesn't do that and she did make him redo his whole book.

Again, that's not here say, it happened to a member of this forum that shared the info with the rest of us. Most of us were using that format at the time.

If you want to keep your format, keep it. If you want to change it, change it. It's your book. But if your ever audited, you may be forced to redo it.

Good to know I wasn't imagining that! I couldn't for the life of me remember where I had seen that, though.

 

[Sunir]

What's on the cover probably is irrelevant, but additional fields on the sheets are not what the regs say. I don't have anything on the cover of my bound book.

Once again, the regulations--as they are stated--are what the BATFE agent is ultimately charged with enforcing, and what you are ultimately responsible for complying with. That's what it boils down to.

An individual agent may let something slide, or overlook something you did, but they don't have to. The safest approach is to go literally by the book, and I still maintain that what will impress an agent the most is that you followed the rules, your entries are complete and up to date, and what you entered is legible. It's not a science fair project being judged by the moms of 5th graders. Decorations don't mean a thing.

To be honest with you, I think the printed book with the seal on the pages, etc., was intended far more to impress potential buyers with its official look than any BATFE agent who might read it. Just a personal opinion, but I doubt they'd care a rat's pahtootie about that seal, one way or the other. If you want to impress them, make their job as easy as possible by having your entries easy to read and in the order specified.

Macho you have obviously done (or are very familiar with) government contracting. What you said is spot on. When I was working with a firm preparing technical proposals for Dept. of Defense a few years back we would answer the technical aspects of the solicitation be saying "The contractor will......" in every area where the agency asked "The contractor shall...." we kept things VERY direct, easy to understand, and re-iterated every point exactly as stated with an affirmation to each specific requirement.

Your bound book suggestion is going to get the job done, simple, direct, and exactly to the letter of what the agency wants.

 

[Machodoc]

Macho you have obviously done (or are very familiar with) government contracting. What you said is spot on.

Not with government contracting, but had some early experience with the U.S. Customs, and some rather extensive later experience dealing with the FAA (including some long talks with FAA attorneys and maintenance heads). I found that the best way to impress government inspectors of all sorts was to make their job as easy as possible. Follow the format they know, give the required info (no more, and no less), and write neatly. It's a pretty simple process. They don't want it to be complicated, either.

 

[Dave91]

Eruby, and those that chimed in that they use the same form.... This is just FYI, but that form you are using is exactly the one toolness1 mentioned finding in a thread. That thread was a long time ago before many of the new posters we have now. It was Bigtdc's thread and he was the one audited.

The agent auditing him said everything must be entered across a single line. That form doesn't do that and she did make him redo his whole book.

Again, that's not here say, it happened to a member of this forum that shared the info with the rest of us. Most of us were using that format at the time.

If you want to keep your format, keep it. If you want to change it, change it. It's your book. But if your ever audited, you may be forced to redo it.

Well damn....looks like I'm redoing my book tonight.

 

[TrotskysRevenge]

Could someone private message me a filled out row?

 

[Alphabrew]

Here's mine

Could someone private message me a filled out row?

There's a sample row filled out on the template I posted in post #10. Best to view it in excel rather than on a smart phone. Two columns on my template (price and notes) are hidden before being printed. I have those two columns grouped so just hit the '+' or '-' at the top to immediately hide or display them.

 

[Machodoc]

Alphabrew ... but the BATFE format doesn't have any requirement for price or notes. I agree those are good things to have, but not for the bound book. If you really want to do it all the right way, maybe have a bound book for the feds, then a separate book to use for insurance documentation, for The Great Widow's Gun Sale, or whatever, that includes photos, prices, notes ... whatever else you want.

I don't know why there's always so much discussion about this stuff. The BATFE says what the bound book must have, and they give an illustration of what they want. ** There's no ambiguity whatsoever. A lot of new people read these threads to get accurate advice. I think we should give them the most accurate info possible.

** I posted both of those earlier in this thread.

 

[reverendbeer]

I don't know why there's always so much discussion about this stuff. The BATFE says what the bound book must have, and they give an illustration of what they want. ** There's no ambiguity whatsoever.

 

[Alphabrew]

Alphabrew ... but the BATFE format doesn't have any requirement for price or notes. I agree those are good things to have, but not for the bound book. If you really want to do it all the right way, maybe have a bound book for the feds, then a separate book to use for insurance documentation, for The Great Widow's Gun Sale, or whatever, that includes photos, prices, notes ... whatever else you want.

I don't know why there's always so much discussion about this stuff. The BATFE says what the bound book must have, and they give an illustration of what they want. ** There's no ambiguity whatsoever. A lot of new people read these threads to get accurate advice. I think we should give them the most accurate info possible.

** I posted both of those earlier in this thread.

That's why I said hide before printing. It's info I have that I would never give the BATF.

 

[Sunir]

So here is a question regarding bound book. If I have made C&R purchases PRIOR to receiving my 03FFL C&R license shall I record those in my bound book as well. OR is the record for transactions only after having received the C&R license? Meaning lets say I have purchased though normal FFL transfer some early rifles and pistols, they would already be recorded with the FFL that did the transfer. So would they need to go in my bound book? If so then every C&R eligible firearm somebody has would need to go into their bound book once they get their C&R license, not just the purchases they made after having obtained their C&R 03FFL. Is that correct?

It is logical though that if I went to sell a C&R eligible item then I would need to make a 'Disposition' entry in my book. Regardless of weather I got it before OR after having received my C&R 03FFL.