case flair, pistol vs rifle

[ras_oscar]

When I reload parallel side pistol cartridges, the "full" die set includes a powder through expanding die which expands the case mouth as it receives the powder charge.

However, full "rifle" die sets don't include a powder drop die. You need to purchase rifle charging dies separately, and only long and short case dies are available, which indicates there is no mouth flaring operation going on, otherwise there would be charging dies for each bullet diameter.

In my reading on other forums, it sounds like case expanding on rifle dies takes place in the full length resizing/decapping die. If that is possible, why isn't it done that way on pistol cases also?

 

[John from MD]

Traditionally, only hobbiest loaded cast bullets for rifles. If you bought rifle bullets in the store, they were jacketed. You don't need to flair for a jacketed bullet, only bevel the case mouth. For this reason, many rifle die sets do not have a bell die included. Fast forward to today, you have Berry bullets (plated) and powder coated sold for rifle calibers. These you need to bell the brass for or your brass will scrape the plating or paint. Lyman does sell M dies for rifle calibers but they have to be bought separately. If you are loading rifle calibers on a Dillon progressive, usually you purchase a M1 funnel (C) in order to bell the case.

Hope this helps.

 

[guzma393]

Traditionally, only hobbiest loaded cast bullets for rifles. If you bought rifle bullets in the store, they were jacketed. You don't need to flair for a jacketed bullet, only bevel the case mouth. For this reason, many rifle die sets do not have a bell die included. Fast forward to today, you have Berry bullets (plated) and powder coated sold for rifle calibers. These you need to bell the brass for or your brass will scrape the plating or paint. Lyman does sell M dies for rifle calibers but they have to be bought separately. If you are loading rifle calibers on a Dillon progressive, usually you purchase a M1 funnel (C) in order to bell the case.

Hope this helps.

The plating on rifle bullets are oftentimes thicker than their pistol counterparts, therefore seat fine without expanding the case mouth. I don't personally expand for plated rifle bullets for this reason, but it would make sense for lead/powder coated bullets.

 

[Pinecone]

The rifle method will not work on most pistol rounds. It only works on bottle neck casings. So it also does not work on .30 Carbine rifle rounds.

The way it works with a rifle case. There is expander ball on the stem with the decapping pin. So it is inserted into the case while the case mouth is not yet sized.

Then, at full insertion, the pin pushes out the primer and the case is sized to the desired size. The neck is actually sized to be a bit small.

Then, when you withdraw the case from the die, the expander ball is pulled through the case mouth, setting the final size.

Some rifle sizing dies use an interchangeable bushing to size the neck, so you can adjust it to minimize the sizing down, then back up. Or, if you brass neck thickness is uniform (quality brass or by neck turning), you can just use the proper bushing to the get the right size.

 

[PowPow]

Traditionally, only hobbiest loaded cast bullets for rifles. If you bought rifle bullets in the store, they were jacketed. You don't need to flair for a jacketed bullet, only bevel the case mouth. For this reason, many rifle die sets do not have a bell die included. Fast forward to today, you have Berry bullets (plated) and powder coated sold for rifle calibers. These you need to bell the brass for or your brass will scrape the plating or paint. Lyman does sell M dies for rifle calibers but they have to be bought separately. If you are loading rifle calibers on a Dillon progressive, usually you purchase a M1 funnel (C) in order to bell the case.

Hope this helps.

John, you've used three different terms. I'm not certain of the distinction. I've always used the term "flare" to describe opening up the edge of the case mouth. This is is good enough for FMJ. Then, you have the Lyman M die equivalent, which I'd call mostly an expander. It's good for the plated and cast boolits to reduce/eliminate deformation. How do your three terms map to my description, and where am I off base? You've forgotten more about reloading than I'll probably ever learn.

 

[John from MD]

Flare, bell, expand basically all mean the same thing. Aside from the M die, all so called expander dies flare the mouth of the bullet. The M die opens the neck wider and flares the mouth. Stay away from Universal Expanders as they open the neck as well as the mouth but how much is guesswork.

In my opinion, unless you are a bench rest or long range shooter, you only have to do the following. For jacketed boat tail rifle bullets (not plated), all you need to do is chamfer the case mouth, the bullet will do the rest. If it is a flat based bullet, you have to flare the mouth. The reason for this is that rifle dies for the most part, guide the bullet for longer distance than pistol dies.

For pistol, you need to flare the mouth for everything as the die doesn't control the bullet as tightly as a rifle die.

The Lyman M die expands the neck and flares the mouth of the case. Lyman's idea was to give you more standard neck tension on each cartridge. This die came about when we were super prepping brass and annealing every four or five shots. Since I was reloading for bolt guns, this was practical. Loading for .223 and shooting 3 to 500 rounds a week makes it a very impracticable process.
I would still use them if I was a young guy and doing precision shooting. As it is, I have to work to get 3 MOA today so why bother.

 

[Pinecone]

I would say the Lyman M (and copies), are more doing a two level expansion, not really a flare.

To me, a flare is a funnel like shape. The M die does two diameters with the mouth slightly larger than the rest of the neck.

A chamfer is an angle cut into the metal. Like a bevel. I find it is fine for all jacketed rifle bullets, as even a flat based has a radius from the side to the base. I only cut the sharp edge off, after trimming. I don't chamfer new or once fired cases.

 

[John from MD]

They flare if you screw it down enough. You can adjust the die for expanded neck with no flair or expanded neck with flare. It all depends how you adjust the stem.

 

[Pinecone]

They flare if you screw it down enough. You can adjust the die for expanded neck with no flair or expanded neck with flare. It all depends how you adjust the stem.

OK, I have not tried them. I am thinking of getting one of the versions for my 650.

 

[Mdphotographer]

I have a Hornady LnL and use the Lyman M die on everything I reload. .38 Super .40S&W .30 Carbine .223 Rem. and .45 ACP. I use Mr Bulletfeeder dies and SoCal S&W bullet magazines to feed the bullets. I find the M dies much better for expanding the case mouth for bullet feeding in a progressive then the expanders in 3 die sets or powder through expanders for powder measures.

 

[ironhead7544]

I agree with Mdphotographer. I quit using expander balls years ago. I do not like having to put lube inside the case mouth. The M die also makes the progressive press much smoother in operation. You do not have to fight the expander ball on the way down.

 

[ras_oscar]

so, what I am hearing is that if I reload bottleneck rifle cases with a boat tail projectile, case flare is not required. Correct?

 

[John from MD]

Yes.

 

[Mdphotographer]

so, what I am hearing is that if I reload bottleneck rifle cases with a boat tail projectile, case flare is not required. Correct?

That depends...if you are placing each projectile in the case mouth and guiding it into the bullet seating die then no you dont need to expand the case mouth. If you are using a progressive with a bullet feeder then yes you do.

 

[Mdphotographer]

One thing to remember about M dies is the expanders will work loose from the stem. I use locktite on mine to keep them from unscrewing

 

[John from MD]

One thing to remember about M dies is the expanders will work loose from the stem. I use locktite on mine to keep them from unscrewing

True. That made me wonder if you could buy just the expander and not the whole die from Lyman. I never got around to asking since I had already bought all the full dies I needed.

 

[Mdphotographer]

No the expander wont fit on other brands dies they all use different types of threads etc

 

[Mdphotographer]

I just ordered my first .45 ACP in 30 years so also ordered .45 ACP dies shell plate M die and bullet feeder die and crimp die

 

[John from MD]

No the expander wont fit on other brands dies they all use different types of threads etc

I was talking about buying the expander portion for the Lyman die instead of buying each complete M die.

 

[Mdphotographer]

Yes you can buy one M die and get different expander plug check out these web pages. This should answer your questions. I just bought a M die for each different cartridge i reload for. Saves time on set up and as I said the plugs will work lose so you should loctite them.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Lyman_M-Dies/Lyman_M-Die_Plugs.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?264126-source-for-lyman-quot-M-die-expander-plugs