Cheating instructors.

[mcbruzdzinski]

When teaching the class, some instructors would break it up into 4 four hour classes offered during the week or two 4-hour classes during the week and one 8-hour on the weekend. Instructors do try to work with their students to make it less difficult to get in the 16 hours. As others have said, the class time may vary depending on the number of students and the skill level. I have had carry classes where no one in the class had ever held a pistol and the class took a lot longer than 16 hours.

 

[ICW2019]

Breaks are expected. Lunch wasn't and had to cover that extra half hour.

 

[Brychan]

Nice to see this turned into a Guntry W&C course advertisement thread.

Hey, I got something useful out of this thread. I would hate to pay for a course, then have MSP come to me in a few months and tell me my permit was revoked because the trainers were caught cutting corners, and I needed to shell out another $ 300 - 400 for a new class.

When searching for classes in my area some of the places seemed over priced and some what sketchy. For some reason Guntry never popped up in my searches.

 

[Rich1911]

Well, I know i was cheated out of a true MD W&C training glass.
1.5 ish hours of "learning" to shoot, draw, and load.
3 mins on a simulated shooting a steel plate course
1/2 hour-ish of HQL "refresher"
1 hour-ish of W&C "content", mostly stories and BS break down of laws.
1 hour of gun raffles
1 hour of fingerprints, photos, and applications
3 hours of meal breaks
2 hours of breaks
7 hours of waiting around.

The qualification shoot was 20 rounds of simunition at a paper plate.

I wish i had shopped around before signing up for the class..... I just wanted to get the class done as soon as i could. Looked at Guntry after the fact and realized that I missed out on actual training. I am getting training for my wife and babysitters, ended up talking to the local training instructor tied to the private range I am joining. Sounds like his class is going to be exactly what my wife needs as she isn't one who normally goes shooting or does much with firearms.

Ok, Who did the class? that is what this thread is about I believe...

 

[miles71]

As long as there are people who want the minimum or less there will be instructors willing to break the rules and deliver. Think what you want about the training and it being mandated, but if your gonna do it it should be done right. If you're gonna spend money and 16 hours in a course you need to get you money's worth and not just waste time.

Any good instructor can fill 16 hours with useful information and activities.

TD

 

[clandestine]

Trying to ding instructors over training requirements that shouldn't exist is some serious B.S.

Mandatory training to exercise a constitutional/natural right is tyranny.

It's bad enough politicians and much of the idiotic public support it, but it's really disgusting to see other gun owners, instructors, and 2A organizations goose-stepping right along with it all.

Lots of companies and instructors offer training similar to what I do. I worry about me and my students. I don't give a rat's ass if they give bad info or stick things in their @ss as part of their class.

Training is a wonderful thing when it's not done by force.

 

[Boondock Saint]

In the last Zoom meeting with MSP, 1st Sgt. Pickle said that instructors who were cheating the requirements could potentially have their license suspended for a year. He also said that those who took training with an instructor who was cheating could have to re-train to keep their permit valid, but that it would be handed on an individual basis.

 

[eventhorizon]

So when your instructor says that’s it, we’ve covered everything, you’re going to sit there for another hour or however long it is? My most recent class they finished and tried to set up their new shoot/don’t shoot simulator. When they couldn’t get it to work class was dismissed. What about people who left to get food while the class continued?

I know I’m being a PITA about this but I’m firmly in the mindset of training is great and everyone should get it but it shouldn’t be required or dictated by the government.

Last Sunday, right? We must have been in the same class.

 

[SigNerd]

Ok, Who did the class? that is what this thread is about I believe...

No, there's a bad instructor thread, feel free to get the information there. As Boondock Saint said, getting people to say that their instructor cheated on the 16 hours puts their W&C permit at risk. If my instructor cheated (they didn't), I sure wouldn't ever say it. But I'd trash them for other things in the bad instructor thread.

Edit: really not intending to sound harsh in any way, I'm sincerely sorry if it comes across that way. I just really want to avoid people putting their permit at risk by making this into a naming & shaming thread.

 

[Brychan]

Trying to ding instructors over training requirements that shouldn't exist is some serious B.S.

Mandatory training to exercise a constitutional/natural right is tyranny.

It's bad enough politicians and much of the idiotic public support it, but it's really disgusting to see other gun owners, instructors, and 2A organizations goose-stepping right along with it all.

Lots of companies and instructors offer training similar to what I do. I worry about me and my students. I don't give a rat's ass if they give bad info or stick things in their @ss as part of their class.

Training is a wonderful thing when it's not done by force.

Oh, I totally agree, but if I have to do it in order to get the permit I will do it above board, who knows I've only been pulling triggers for over 50 years I might learn something. This thread helped me find training in my area that at least seems to fit the bill. Not sure if I could keep my mouth shut and not get thrown out if the instructor is really throwing a lot of nonsense out.

 

[TRON 2.0]

In the last Zoom meeting with MSP, 1st Sgt. Pickle said that instructors who were cheating the requirements could potentially have their license suspended for a year. He also said that those who took training with an instructor who was cheating could have to re-train to keep their permit valid, but that it would be handed on an individual basis.

Instructor(company) I took my class at used paper plates instead of the targets mentioned in the MD W&C course overview from MSP. I am now wondering if the at least 3-4 classes they do in a week at 70+ people a class, at $350 a class will be screwed over. I guess i should go attend another training just in case there is an issue with the instructor's license in the not-so-distant future...

 

[scottyfz6]

See this is where we get into funny loop holes that go counter to what the state says.

Lets say I take an 8 hour shooting class with an instructor. And I mean a full 8 hours of range time.

Then I sign up the next day for that instructors w&c class, which only takes 8 hours. It per the law would not qualify, but if done in the reverse 8 hour class, then 8 hours of range time the MSP would have no issue with it because the instructor can say the 8 hours range time was part of the class. But because I took the range portion first "then signed" up the first day was not part of the class.

We all know the 16 hours is meant to be nothing but a hurdle, nothing but a reason to not get the HGP. Anyone who has done a class knows that what is required to be covered including 30 mins on a range can be done in 8 hours or even less. Sure an instructor can do extra stuff, that may or may not be worth it to make it take 16 hours. An instructor could do 4 hours on cleaning guns, or 4 hours on the range, as long as whats required is cover the MSP would not care as long as the total was 16 hours.

I have not taken the guntry or anyone elses class besides the one I took, I cant say if the "extra" was worth it. Personally I would be happy if an instructor did 8 hours of class and a true 8 hours of shooting instruction ( for those who need it )

 

[243hunter]

It wouldn't be that hard for MSP to revoke, or at least suspend pending investigation, every permit issued as a result of that instructor's certification, because they may have been issued using fraudulent documentation.

For those suspended, it would probably be easier to just re-take the training elsewhere rather than wait the indefinite amount of time it would take MSP to get around to each individual case. That's the way bureaucracies work, turn the process into a punishment to force compliance.

that is basically what Illinois does. If an instruction gets caught not following the training requirement they revoke the instructors license and revoke all the students permits, and give them 90 days to seek new training and upload a new training completed certificate.

 

[SigNerd]

Instructor(company) I took my class at used paper plates instead of the targets mentioned in the MD W&C course overview from MSP. I am now wondering if the at least 3-4 classes they do in a week at 70+ people a class, at $350 a class will be screwed over. I guess i should go attend another training just in case there is an issue with the instructor's license in the not-so-distant future...

An 8 inch paper plate is a much harder standard than the one called for in the rules. Was it done at the appropriate distances or was the paper plate to get around the distance requirement? If at the appropriate distances I wouldn't worry. Otherwise, yeah, I might consider my options once things die down. In good news, retaking the class (or just the renewal portion assuming the rest was fine since that re-covers the range qual I believe) would cover your required renewal training since it'll be less than 2 years old when you're up for renewal.

 

[hobiecat590]

There was one on Facebook advertising that he could do the entire class in one day. I started asking questions and he got upset with me. How in the hell can you do a 16 hour class in a single day. he ended up saying his class was mostly on line and a few hours range time.
this looks sketch to me. I thought the class had to be in person along with a 25 round live fire.

i have heard from others about their class and it sounded a little sketchy as well. I have seen a few companies post because who you are going with. That in its self is telling us all that these classes are being watched.

i went trough J2 defense they where not the cheapest but i left the class feeling good and knowing just enough to build on and they told us this. They actually let us use their milo training system. We took very few breaks and had class during lunch. We got over the minimum 16 hours.

Kudos to J2. They do the NRA version of the CCW training that is a bit more involved. They also will process your HQL and FL apps. during the class. The Milo system was a real trip.

 

[Blaster229]

An 8 inch paper plate is a much harder standard than the one called for in the rules. Was it done at the appropriate distances or was the paper plate to get around the distance requirement? If at the appropriate distances I wouldn't worry. Otherwise, yeah, I might consider my options once things die down. In good news, retaking the class (or just the renewal portion assuming the rest was fine since that re-covers the range qual I believe) would cover your required renewal training since it'll be less than 2 years old when you're up for renewal.

I'm going with "What is "Paper plates are cheaper than actual targets for 1,000 Alex"."

 

[daggo66]

Last Sunday, right? We must have been in the same class.

Yes. I was sitting front and center. I truly hope you weren’t the guy who asked about the “double pop”.

 

[daggo66]

Trying to ding instructors over training requirements that shouldn't exist is some serious B.S.

Mandatory training to exercise a constitutional/natural right is tyranny.

It's bad enough politicians and much of the idiotic public support it, but it's really disgusting to see other gun owners, instructors, and 2A organizations goose-stepping right along with it all.

Lots of companies and instructors offer training similar to what I do. I worry about me and my students. I don't give a rat's ass if they give bad info or stick things in their @ss as part of their class.

Training is a wonderful thing when it's not done by force.

I couldn’t agree more!

 

[TRON 2.0]

I'm going with "What is "Paper plates are cheaper than actual targets for 1,000 Alex"."

$24,500 every 2 days, i think they should be able to afford the actual targets.....

But beyond that, the plate was stationary at 10 feet ish... so all shots, safe distance.

 

[Mark75H]

Kudos to J2. They do the NRA version of the CCW training that is a bit more involved. They also will process your HQL and FL apps. during the class. The Milo system was a real trip.

There is no need to do the HQL separately. Once you’re granted wear and carry you need only return to MSPLD website and click a please issue button. If someone is paying extra for this they are being ripped off.