EDC carry a BP

[CaptainVane]

I apologize if this sounds just stupid or has been discussed before, please humor me.
If a BP pistol is not considered a firearm, and can be shipped to me, and I don’t need a HQL to buy, own;
What is the law regarding carrying a Colt .31 Baby Dragoon in a holster on your person? Or a Walker? Gun size don’t really matter. Loaded, Unloaded. Loaded uncapped?
Nobody and i mean Nobody seems to have a clear answer.
I have asked from LEO to Smokeless gun shops and read til my eyes hurt and NOBODY has a clear answer.
Before you go there, I am not talking about LEO reaction to seeing a pistol on your belt and the consequences. I know bad things can happen at that point.
Just simply, can you?

 

[rseymorejr]

I BELIEVE that once you load and carry or have in a vehicle a BP handgun the rules for modern pistols apply.
I can't cite this in the law or point to where I read this but I seem to remember some discussion on here about this very
topic and that seemed to be the outcome.

 

[Park ranger]

Think weapon not guns to point you in the state's direction. The right direction is go for it.

 

[John from MD]

I apologize if this sounds just stupid or has been discussed before, please humor me.
If a BP pistol is not considered a firearm, and can be shipped to me, and I don’t need a HQL to buy, own;
What is the law regarding carrying a Colt .31 Baby Dragoon in a holster on your person? Or a Walker? Gun size don’t really matter. Loaded, Unloaded. Loaded uncapped?
Nobody and i mean Nobody seems to have a clear answer.
I have asked from LEO to Smokeless gun shops and read til my eyes hurt and NOBODY has a clear answer.
Before you go there, I am not talking about LEO reaction to seeing a pistol on your belt and the consequences. I know bad things can happen at that point.
Just simply, can you?

Don't do it. For one reason if no other and that is that it creates a fire hazard when fired indoors.

I think if you look in the criminal codes of the various cities, counties etc., you will find that they define what a weapon is for the context of that particular law and many reference muzzleloading guns.

 

[Blacksmith101]

It has been debated several times on this forum. You need to hone your search skills to find them and get your answers. IIRC the answer was don't do it because even though it is not a firearm it is still considered a dangerous weapon or some such thing. Look for it because almost everything you can think about regarding guns has been talked about in some of the 6,910,716 posts we have on MDS.

Here is one of the threads, there are more:

MD GUN LAW Q

Can a loaded blackpower revolver be legally CC in MD ?? (Without a permit)

www.mdshooters.com

 

[Boondock Saint]

I would not consider carrying a BP firearm if for no other reason than it isn't 1868.

I do, however, sincerely appreciate the academic discussion behind it.

 

[outrider58]

It has been debated several times on this forum. You need to hone your search skills to find them and get your answers. IIRC the answer was don't do it because even though it is not a firearm it is still considered a dangerous weapon or some such thing. Look for it because almost everything you can think about regarding guns has been talked about in some of the 6,910,716 posts we have on MDS.

Here is one of the threads, there are more:

MD GUN LAW Q

Can a loaded blackpower revolver be legally CC in MD ?? (Without a permit)

www.mdshooters.com

Yup. The subject crops up about once a year.

My feeling, anything is usually better than nothing, but when it comes to my and my family's protection, I need every edge I can get. BP falls well short of that.

 

[Threeband]

A cap and ball revolver will not give you the magic legal loophole you're looking for.


A .31 cap and ball Mouse Gun is a complete absurdity as a defensive handgun. It was inadequate even in 1861, when Mark Twain's brother carried one "uncapped, to guard against accidents."

 

[wb3jma]

Wow your very old school!

 

[Biggfoot44]

* Not to be taken as encouragement * . and see footnotes at end .

BP guns are Not Firearms .
They are Weapons under the meaning of 4-101 .

They. ( BP Revolver) may be carried in the same manor and circumstances as a sword , axe , or Bowie Knife .

High points are not concealed , not with Intent . ( Case law is scattered about Intent for what , but such as intent for a crime , intent for violent crime , etc .)

Is it * wise * ? Average LEO isn't going to recognize if it is a Colt Navy or Remington New Model Army in your exposed holster , or a SAA or Blackhawk . So expect purposeful interactions on a regular basis from LE while they sort it out each time .

Would it be effective ?

There is a learning curve for consistent , safe , reliable , and accurate loading and opperation . And a plethora of tools , and doodads .

And , short bbls are not your friend , major velocity loss with shorter bbl lengths . Since we're inherently talking open carry , might as well use the original bbl lengths .

Powerful enough ? Put down your pocket calculator . we're talking balls of soft lead , big holes , and deep penetration . Plenty of Civil Mexican War , Civil War , post War first hand accounts , plus people using original C&B Revolvers for hunting in early 20th Century .

.44 BP think of the wound track as substantially similar to .45acp FMJ . Back in the day , they were reasonably effective at dropping Cavalry HORSES , much less Cavalry Troopers .

Elmer Keith hunted extensively with Original .36 Navy . With round ball and full charge used on medium sized game , it performed better than contemporary factory .38 spl . So think of it as as least as good as non expanding .38spl or .380

.31 ? They're cute .
Yeah , yeah , Colt and Remington sold a buttload , and lots of them were carried , and were " better than nothing " . Modern comparison would be delibertly carrying a .22 Short on purpose . In 1862 when Colt introduced the .36 on a .31 frame , every .31 became instantly obsolete .

Is there a good reason to carry one for social purposes today ? ( leaving aside Prohibited Persons , who are jammed up , but not morally unfit ) ? I'd be hard pressed to think of any , and I like Revolvers including Single Actions .

For Carry ? Well there's a reason for flap holsters back in the day , propection from the elements . ( Reverse these paragraphs , I'm too lazy )


***** Footnotes - Different Statutes can include different definitions as regards that Statute .Use of Handgun in Crime of Violence , Armeed Robbery , and so use definitions that include BP and Antiques .

 

[Mike OTDP]

If you had a Wear & Carry, I think it would be legal. If you did not have a Wear & Carry...don't. Just don't. You might be able to win the criminal case, but I doubt it. But the attempt would give MGA just the reason to consider black powder firearms as modern.

Meaning that the custom guns I have on order get to play roster reindeer games. I will NOT be happy about that.

On top of this, one advantage cartridge guns have is that you can unload them easily. There is no administrative unloading of muzzle-loading arms.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Well , you can pull the cylinder from your 1858 Remington or Ruger Old Army .

 

[Jimgoespewpew]

Eminem: what if you had.....one shot.....would you take it?

 

[CaptainVane]

I would not consider carrying a BP firearm if for no other reason than it isn't 1868.

I do, however, sincerely appreciate the academic discussion behind it.

Second part is why i asked. Academic.
I know a few cops, all have no clue.
I wrote the concealed carry folks, a subsidiary of the NRA, no clue, referred me to MD State Police link, said they are THE AUTHORITY on the matter.
Wrote a clear and concise email to that web address and you know what they said? Nothing! Crickets! I’m telling you NOBODY knows. Nobody.
PS, title is bad, best i could come up with at the time. As said, no i aint walking down North Avenue with a 1848 Baby Dragoon. Point is, i think its a grey area that fell thru the laws.

 

[smokey]

If you conceal it, no. If you open carry it, it's fine. It's similar to a "dirk knife", throwing stars, or nunchaku. I teach phys ed and like guns, I'm not a lawyer. I believe this to be correct though.

 

[Inigoes]

Too much maintenance to begin with for a carry gun.

Black powder draws moisture, meaning you should reload it every morning before leaving for your destination.
How does one safely unload a muzzle loader? Shoot it into the ground, of course...

Do you have the facilities to support the above daily maintenance?

DNR regulations stipulate for transporting BP firearms: If the ignition source is removed buy the powder and projectile remain in the barrel, it is considered "charged". Otherwise is the ignition source is ready to go (aka primed), then the BP firearm is considered loaded and illegal to transport in or on your vehicle.

 

[CaptainVane]

And, I appreciate the reply. However, What DNR thinks is/maybe different from what BaltCountyPD think, or Harford Sherrifs, or Troopers, or MDTA toll cops think, or the good ole boys up in Garrett, Alleghany think.
Again nothing is clear in this state.
Today, I transported 2 BP pistols, cylinders loaded at house to save time for when i got to range. No caps on, in flap holsters, in trunk. Caps, everything else in range bag in back seat.
Legal? Who the hell knows?
On way home, totaly empty, in closed flap holsters, on back floor with range bag on back seat. Legal? Who the hell knows?
When i bought these, they were shipped to my house because Maryland says “they are not firearms”.
So what are they? Fancy clubs?
See what i getting at?
They can’t be “not firearm” and fall under firearm laws at the same time.
I cant be the first person that contemplated this.

 

[Melnic]

Just think about how a law enforcement officer will have NO skill in handling and unloading one if they remove it from you and the risk that imposes on the officer, you or innocents. Not a good idea IMO.

 

[Archeryrob]

Today, I transported 2 BP pistols, cylinders loaded at house to save time for when i got to range. No caps on, in flap holsters, in trunk. Caps, everything else in range bag in back seat.
Legal? Who the hell knows?

Perfectly legal without the caps on. The cylinder can be in, charged, and a Black powder weapon is considered "unloaded" without the primer, or cap, on/in it. It is quite slow to pull a pistol like that out and put all the caps on fast.

I have an 1858 with a 45 colt cylinder on it. 8" barrel and would carry it side holstered when bow hunting as a protection gun. Found out, DNR considers any pistol over 6" barrels a hunting weapon and under 6" as a protection weapon. SO I have to carry my G17 or P365 in the woods and I am fine. Carry the 1858 and I can get fined.

 

[Biggfoot44]

OK, short sentences :

It IS * Legal * to open carry your 1848 Third Mdl Dragoon , down the street, in your car , etc .

It is NOT * Legal * to Conceal your Dragoon . ( W&C Permit applies to Handguns , C&B do not fit definition of Handgun , which fact triggered this whole discussion. )

The odds of any LEO ( not a member of MDS ) knowing this round off to zero.

Expect to have first person exhibition of felony arrest techniques ( OP is discussing in context of 21-22 , and presumably post Oct 1 SB-1 , when open carry of actual Firearms is verboten). A cpl hours later , the Watch Commander and the on call ASA might realize you are , in fact , Legal. If the ASA is suffering from Cranial Rectal Syndrome, you would be acquitted at trial .