Educate me on External Hollow Point

[smokey]

 

[outrider58]

Two quick YTs worth a look..

 

[John from MD]

Just spit-balling here but to me that ammo MIGHT have a higher tendency to not feed properly on a particular feed ramp. I would need to fire 500 flawless rounds before I bet my life on it.

While I test any gun I carry with 200 rounds of carry ammo, I have not had any failures to feed with the Underwood bullets. One reason is they are relatively short and the flutes are actually rounded similar to the ogive of a FMJ bullet.

 

[Bafflingbs]

Just spit-balling here but to me that ammo MIGHT have a higher tendency to not feed properly on a particular feed ramp. I would need to fire 500 flawless rounds before I bet my life on it.

I completely agree with your train of thought, here. However, these little bastards are expensive! I’ve shot dozens of them, without a hiccup. But 500’s going to cost ya!
The Extreme Defenders, are more rounded, and feed very well. The Extreme Penetrators, on the other hand, had more of a chance of sticking, but I’ve only heard of that happening to one person.

 

[smokey]

This video does a good job of showing three different bullet technologies. Gold dots are old bonded star-expanding types, similar to HSTs and signs v crown. The Lehigh tacxp is a newer variant that uses a solid copper hollowpoint like the DPX/XPD Barnes puts out. I like them a lot. They're expensive, but have great performance. And the newest, the external hollowpoint. I suppose you could toss fort Scott TUI(tumble upon impact) bullets in this general category of solid copper bullets that rely on other mechanisms besides expansion to create damage.

 

[smokey]

https://www.brassfetcher.com/Bone%20Simulant/9mm%20Luger%20Bone%20Test.htmlp

For more data backing solid copper hollowpoints, here's an old brass fetcher test showing reliable expansion after passing through a bone simulant. The "bone" plate mimics ribcage/sternum for the purpose of the test.

 

[alucard0822]

The concept works like a shape-charge with explosives. The flutes create high pressure areas of constructive interference that create wounding essentially from these high-pressure jets radiating outward. It's NOT about hydrostatic shock, as that's not a proven wounding mechanism.

A traditional hollowpoint handgun round only damages what the front physically smashes in to. Star-shaped versions(like gold dots, DPXs, and HSTs) can expand wide and penetrate deep because the space between petals reduces drag(relative to old mushroom shaped bullets).

Tests have actually been somewhat positive for these, with Andrew from the chopping block and MAC both showing gel tests and tests on meat.

The extreme defenders seem like the best choice, since they limit overpenetration and create a bigger permanent wound cavity in tests.

Interesting properties of these are that they're pretty flat shooting(lightweight means higher velocity) and largely barrier blind(because they're not dependent on a hollowpoint that may get clogged or crushed through barriers)

Yes, this. Lehigh produced the first practical commercial ammo using this tech, one of the relatively few real innovations in ballistics in recent years. I spoke to one of their reps a couple years ago to get an understanding of it.

The shape directs soft tissue outward at high velocity to cause additional damage from the impact, it also reduces the area of the ogive to improve penetration of hard barriers like glass, drywall, and clothing, as it inherently pushes material out of the way instead of crushing it as most bullet shapes do. Essentially you have penetration on par with a copper solid, and damage on par with expanding ammo.

The difference is that this needs higher velocities to work, and in a target the greatest effects are immediately upon penetrating soft tissue. That is reduced as the bullet slows, material has time to stretch out of the way, and the velocity of the jets is reduced. This is one area where traditional HPs have an advantage, they take a couple inches to open up, then have the full diameter to crush tissue for the remainder of their path, and many designs do have some minor hydrodynamic jetting depending on the expanded shape. There can also be issues with feeding, and the required high velocities can cause reliability issues. Even so, it is a promising design, and for some calibers like 30 super carry, that inherently have very high velocity, and a smaller diameter, this wounding mechanism might have better performance than expansion.

Might be interesting to see if a design that applies engineering concepts like supersonic area rule, and an extreme lightweight/high velocity/low drag design like the tubular PMC ultramag, or mechanical programming from pre stressed/weakened areas to use mechanisms like hydrostatic cavitation to reduce drag, then increase the jetting effect deeper in the wound track. Figure most soft tissue, especially fat can combine with heat and an oxidizer to produce thermal expansion. Of course can't have a bullet packed with explosive, but filling a cavity in a tubular bullet with oxidizer, and a ramjet shape to compress, heat and combine body fat with oxidizer to basically propel the bullet deeper, then aid in cavitation and wounding. Would be expensive, kind of ridiculous, but at least in theory it could work. also kinda sorta self tunes, so the fatter the attacker, the more fuel and penetration from the bullet.

 

[smokey]

Yes, this. Lehigh produced the first practical commercial ammo using this tech, one of the relatively few real innovations in ballistics in recent years. I spoke to one of their reps a couple years ago to get an understanding of it.

The shape directs soft tissue outward at high velocity to cause additional damage from the impact, it also reduces the area of the ogive to improve penetration of hard barriers like glass, drywall, and clothing, as it inherently pushes material out of the way instead of crushing it as most bullet shapes do. Essentially you have penetration on par with a copper solid, and damage on par with expanding ammo.

The difference is that this needs higher velocities to work, and in a target the greatest effects are immediately upon penetrating soft tissue. That is reduced as the bullet slows, material has time to stretch out of the way, and the velocity of the jets is reduced. This is one area where traditional HPs have an advantage, they take a couple inches to open up, then have the full diameter to crush tissue for the remainder of their path, and many designs do have some minor hydrodynamic jetting depending on the expanded shape. There can also be issues with feeding, and the required high velocities can cause reliability issues. Even so, it is a promising design, and for some calibers like 30 super carry, that inherently have very high velocity, and a smaller diameter, this wounding mechanism might have better performance than expansion.

Might be interesting to see if a design that applies engineering concepts like supersonic area rule, and an extreme lightweight/high velocity/low drag design like the tubular PMC ultramag, or mechanical programming from pre stressed/weakened areas to use mechanisms like hydrostatic cavitation to reduce drag, then increase the jetting effect deeper in the wound track. Figure most soft tissue, especially fat can combine with heat and an oxidizer to produce thermal expansion. Of course can't have a bullet packed with explosive, but filling a cavity in a tubular bullet with oxidizer, and a ramjet shape to compress, heat and combine body fat with oxidizer to basically propel the bullet deeper, then aid in cavitation and wounding. Would be expensive, kind of ridiculous, but at least in theory it could work. also kinda sorta self tunes, so the fatter the attacker, the more fuel and penetration from the bullet.

I just want a hollowpoint filled with little vials of herpes. They may live, but they'll have a raging case of the herp afterwards. They could be called "tac-VD"

 

[babalou]

Lehigh Defense makes the bullet, Underwood sells them, lots of ytube videos on their effectiveness.
All I carry.

I have them in my 9's from Underwood Ammo, as well.

 

[w2kbr]

Restricted shipment to MARYLAND ??? Lehigh Defense/UNDERWOOD: Legal in Maryland ??? Purchase elsewhere????

 

[alucard0822]

I just want a hollowpoint filled with little vials of herpes. They may live, but they'll have a raging case of the herp afterwards. They could be called "tac-VD"

My bodyfat fueled scramjet bullets could potentially have unforeseen consequences like overpenetration. My MIL alone could probably put a case of them in orbit. And i'm not sure the potential of getting more herpes would deter all that many criminals around Bmore.

https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/baltimore-ranks-no-1-for-highest-std-rate-study-says/

 

[AlBeight]

Restricted shipment to MARYLAND ??? Lehigh Defense/UNDERWOOD: Legal in Maryland ??? Purchase elsewhere????

I’ve bought many boxes online without issue. But then it’s only February. MGA has a plan no doubt.

 

[whiskey3]

Restricted shipment to MARYLAND ??? Lehigh Defense/UNDERWOOD: Legal in Maryland ??? Purchase elsewhere????

Just checked Underwood. Good to go.

 

[w2kbr]

I just went up to Lehigh Defense/UNDERWOOD, and they reported "restricted"
As did another online supplier, also "restricted" no shipment to Maryland and other
Left headed States.


Hmmm,what's going on?????

 

[AlBeight]

I just went up to Lehigh Defense/UNDERWOOD, and they reported "restricted"
As did another online supplier, also "restricted" no shipment to Maryland and other
Left headed States.


Hmmm,what's going on?????

Midway USA is GTG.

 

[w2kbr]

MIDWAY : UNAVAILABLE DUE TO SHIPPING RESTRICTIONS, SAME AS uNDERWOOD????

 

[AlBeight]

MIDWAY : UNAVAILABLE DUE TO SHIPPING RESTRICTIONS, SAME AS uNDERWOOD????

Huh, that’s new (ish). I bought probably 10 boxes from them about a year ago. Is it YOUR location? MD has some zip codes that are no bueno. Hampstead 21074 isn’t one if them last I checked.

 

[jokie]

While I test any gun I carry with 200 rounds of carry ammo, I have not had any failures to feed with the Underwood bullets. One reason is they are relatively short and the flutes are actually rounded similar to the ogive of a FMJ bullet.

I second this. The extreme penetrators feed better than Critical Defense.

 

[w2kbr]

Oh well...just not having any luck here.....

 

[AlBeight]

Oh well...just not having any luck here.....

I was able to add them to my cart at Midway, no problems. I’m betting it’s them being safe rather than sorry with the BS rules in this State. Is your Severn zipcode in anyway related to the “Annapolis” zip code, which as I understand it is a no go for online ammo shipments?