Elk???

[oupa]

Did anyone attend the elk reintro meeting last Friday? I had an emergency crop up Friday evening and couldn't make it. Apparently Mike's on vacation since there was nothing new in the paper Sunday.

 

[Erno86]

I did not attend the elk meeting, though I heard about it, on a news radio broadcast. I'm not certain of the result's; but as usual... the Western Maryland farmer's are trying to nix the proposal --- because of claims of crop and fence damage by the elk.

I feel for the farmers... but I'm still frustrated --- that they are unwilliing to persue the natural order of things, meaning...a wild elk herd established in Garrett County.

About 5 years ago, the Western Maryland farmers --- voted down an whitetail antler restriction, by the DNR, similar to the program in Penn.; for the same reasons. This kind of backward thinking is anthemic...along with a callous attitude to our whitetail deer populations and also --- a future elk herd in Maryland --- which has been promoted by the automobile insurance industry; that supports the extinction of whitetail deer herds in Maryland.

 

[Drmsparks]

I can't believe I missed it. Any details would be apprectiated. Any other RMEF members here?

 

[platoonDaddy]

November 2, 2012
Elk meeting draws a herd of anxious Marylanders
Locals concerned of possible reintroduction


http://times-news.com/local/x1501147031/Elk-meeting-draws-a-herd-of-anxious-Marylanders



************************************

following is from WTOP


Skeptics question Md. elk reintroduction plan

http://www.wtop.com/41/2508132/Skeptics-question-Md-elk-reintroduction-plan-

 

[oupa]

Thanks PD! Feel like a fool for missing it. Guess I ought'a read more than Mike's column.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but personally I am dead-set against this and see it as foolish at best.
DNR has established the CWD exclusion zone in eastern Allegheny county so that's out as elk range. That leaves roughly 800 sq. miles in W. Allegheny and Garrett counties. That's EVERYTHING! Not allowing for homes, farms, towns, etc. 800 Sq. Miles. One and 1/3 counties.

The elk range in both PA and KY, the most referenced eastern U.S. examples are both over 6,400 sq. miles, each! Over two dozen counties.
Both PA & WV have already established that they DO NOT want elk in neighboring counties so any wandering across state lines would likely be fair game.
PA's program begun in 1913, 99 years ago! Yeah, they have elk hunting. 46 antlerless and 19 bull tags this year by lottery. Your chances of getting a bear tag in MD. are better. How long you gonna wait to hunt elk in MD?
KY's program has been much better. Begun less than 20 years ago and overwhelmingly over target with the largest herd east of the Mississippi. They have NO elk predators in the area though. Bears are the #1 predator of elk calves*, and there are NO BEARS in the KY elk range.
Whats the bear population density in Garrett County?

As a life-long hunter AND a student of early MD. history, particularly western Maryland history, nobody would like to see elk restored more than me. The cold hard truth however is that there simply is not enough space for them. Even in 1800, Meshach Browning was still hunting wolves and panthers in Garrett county but elk were already long gone... as were bison and wild Indians!

DNR just tried to double the license fee last winter because they don't have enough money to do their present job. Where is the justification in adding MORE species to manage. A species that requires a lot of management!

Yeah, it'd be nice but the cold hard truth is it's simply a bad idea. That said... DNR will probably try it!

[* Predator-Prey Workshop: Cause-specific Mortality of Rocky Mountain Elk Calves.]

 

[BigCity]

I don't know about that but my boss just gave me some elk meat from his trip out west...

 

[DefensivePatriot]

My 2 cents. I am from Montana before moving to Maryland for the Army. My parents still live back there and own a 150 acre ranch. They have a local herd that is in their area. 4 winters ago, after they put up about 200 ton of hay for their cows. The snow drove them down into the fields and they found the hay stacks. Within one week they destroyed the haystacks and they lost all the hay they had for their cows. I am all for people wanting to hunt elk, but in my opinion no reintroduction ever works out the way they want it too. Just look at the wolves reintroduced into Montana and Idaho. That same herd that destroyed our hay 4 years ago (over 100) are now is down to about 15 elk because the wolves in the area exploded. There are 30 packs within 60 miles and no predators take out the wolves. Leave Mother Nature alone.

 

[Mooseman]

I am sure the city folks will decide that we country folk need them out here to destroy our property. They play hell on the front end of a car. If they want an elk heard, release them inside the beltway.

 

[SRD]

I can't believe I missed it. Any details would be apprectiated. Any other RMEF members here?

Former member,sure do miss the Banquets.

 

[BlackBart]

My 2 cents. I am from Montana before moving to Maryland for the Army. My parents still live back there and own a 150 acre ranch. They have a local herd that is in their area. 4 winters ago, after they put up about 200 ton of hay for their cows. The snow drove them down into the fields and they found the hay stacks. Within one week they destroyed the haystacks and they lost all the hay they had for their cows. I am all for people wanting to hunt elk, but in my opinion no reintroduction ever works out the way they want it too. Just look at the wolves reintroduced into Montana and Idaho. That same herd that destroyed our hay 4 years ago (over 100) are now is down to about 15 elk because the wolves in the area exploded. There are 30 packs within 60 miles and no predators take out the wolves. Leave Mother Nature alone.

Spoken from a man with real world experience. Want elk? Move to an area where the natural habitat can support them, common sense people. I'm sure wolves and bear once inhabited Baltimore at one time, be a great place for them but it's not going to happen for obvious reasons.

 

[Erno86]

Spoken from a man with real world experience. Want elk? Move to an area where the natural habitat can support them, common sense people. I'm sure wolves and bear once inhabited Baltimore at one time, be a great place for them but it's not going to happen for obvious reasons.

Western Maryland....would make an ideal habitat for a modest elk herd. The elk might be reintroduced in old coal strip mine reclaimation areas. It would be an extra economic boom for tourism in Western Maryland, for tourists and hunters alike --- who would like to hear the bone-chilling bugle call of a bull elk.

Big game hunting...has turned into a rich mans sport. What better way, to give the common Joe --- an opportunity to draw a permit to hunt an elk --- that would otherwise have to pay thousands of dollars for such a hunt out west; or on some game farm in Pennslyvania.

The reintroduction of elk in Western Maryland...would also give the state of Maryland an extra reason, for denying the land rapists, such as the coal gas fracking, and coal mountain-top removal industries --- from gaining a foothold in Maryland. If you need any more convincing...take a look at West Virginia --- and say goodby to your mountain-top's.

 

[obiii]

Blackbart,
I think that re-introducing bears to Baltimore would be a fantastic idea, especially the grizzly variety. There, they can vie with the local wildlife for food and shelter. Works for me.

OB

 

[Drmsparks]

Western Maryland....would make an ideal habitat for a modest elk herd. The elk might be reintroduced in old coal strip mine reclaimation areas. It would be an extra economic boom for tourism in Western Maryland, for tourists and hunters alike --- who would like to hear the bone-chilling bugle call of a bull elk.

Big game hunting...has turned into a rich mans sport. What better way, to give the common Joe --- an opportunity to draw a permit to hunt an elk --- that would otherwise have to pay thousands of dollars for such a hunt out west; or on some game farm in Pennslyvania.

The reintroduction of elk in Western Maryland...would also give the state of Maryland an extra reason, for denying the land rapists, such as the coal gas fracking, and coal mountain-top removal industries --- from gaining a foothold in Maryland. If you need any more convincing...take a look at West Virginia --- and say goodby to your mountain-top's.

Well Said!

 

[oupa]

Western Maryland....would make an ideal habitat for a modest elk herd. The elk might be reintroduced in old coal strip mine reclaimation areas. It would be an extra economic boom for tourism in Western Maryland, for tourists and hunters alike --- who would like to hear the bone-chilling bugle call of a bull elk.

Big game hunting...has turned into a rich mans sport. What better way, to give the common Joe --- an opportunity to draw a permit to hunt an elk --- that would otherwise have to pay thousands of dollars for such a hunt out west; or on some game farm in Pennslyvania.

The reintroduction of elk in Western Maryland...would also give the state of Maryland an extra reason, for denying the land rapists, such as the coal gas fracking, and coal mountain-top removal industries --- from gaining a foothold in Maryland. If you need any more convincing...take a look at West Virginia --- and say goodby to your mountain-top's.

I got a better idea. How about this;

MD's mountain tops are being raped by GREEN ENERGY companies with their unsightly freaking turbines! If O'governor's buddy, O'brother continues his war on coal, the few jobs we have from that industry will evaporate... oh, but I see what you're saying. Instead of a good paying, though dangerous mining job we can go to work part-time at Cracker Barrel for min. wage serving all those folks coming to LOOK AT the elk.
Yeah, LOOK AT because any hope of a huntable population is nothing but bait to get W.MD'rs to give in. PA's been trying for 99 years and they have 19 bull tags this year!

I say, if elk are such a great idea, put em east of the mountains. After all, that region is historically elk range as well. Erno86, I apologize for busting on you but every time something in W.Md. gets proposed as "a good idea" it seems to be coming from someone east. Some of us happen to think capitalizing on OUR Marcelus Shale gas would be A GOOD THING! It CAN be done safely for resident and the environment but that's another subject...

I reiterate, let those who think elk are such a great idea, live with them. We'll just wait till they expand west naturally.

 

[Drmsparks]

Mountaintop removal mining is simply a way to get coal while eliminating as many jobs as possible. That's why they choose it over conventional mining. Have you actually looked at what they do? Have you seen the spoil piles and waste impoundments? Tracked the cancer clusters in the communities downwind? Time to realize that coals day has come and gone. There are better alternatives. Coal is getting killed right now because natural gas is cheaper. No other reason. When natural gas prices rise, coal may become viable again. Same thing happens over and over again. When oil was cheap in the 50's and 60's coal production dropped like a rock. It took the OPEC oil embargo in the 70's to make coal competitive again. It's cylclic. Deal with it.

Fracking may be a productive way of gathering natural gas. We can't adequately evaluate the impacts because industry has chosen to keep too much information secret. If they want to pump chemicals into the drinking water aquifers they need to be honest about what they are putting in. Then we can evaluate the cost benefit and decide if it's something we want to do. As long as we are kept in the dark they can keep that out of here, thank you very much.

As far as your suggested introduction area, overlay a tax parcel map on that would you? if the land isn't heavily fragmented (lots of larger, state owned parcels) then it would be a good candidate. I see the two main reservoir areas but am not sure of the other territory you have boxed in. Possible introduction areas should be chosen by where the most suitable habitat is and shouldn't be limited by arbitrary "east" vs "west" distinctions.

 

[ktm rider]

Spoken from a man with real world experience. Want elk? Move to an area where the natural habitat can support them, common sense people. I'm sure wolves and bear once inhabited Baltimore at one time, be a great place for them but it's not going to happen for obvious reasons.

I am sure the city folks will decide that we country folk need them out here to destroy our property. They play hell on the front end of a car. If they want an elk heard, release them inside the beltway.

I live in Garrett County and I totally agree. This whole situation reminds me of the big dust up a few years ago about bear hunting.

Everyone from "The City" thought it was terrible that we "rednecks" up here would even consider hunting the precious Maryland black bears. Afterall, it is the PG county, AA county and Annapolis area that runs Maryland and they should know what is best for us up here in the mountains.

The residents south of the Frederick area just love coming up here to the Deep Creek area and see the wonderful bears once every few months. In the mean time us GC residents have to put up with them getting into our chicken coups, ruining our deer herd, tearing up our vehicles and numerous other problems associcated with them.

Try living with them and you opinion will change in a big hurry..

 

[K31]

Everyone from "The City" thought it was terrible that we "rednecks" up here would even consider hunting the precious Maryland black bears. Afterall, it is the PG county, AA county and Annapolis area that runs Maryland and they should know what is best for us up here in the mountains.

Yeah, it's all the upscale urbanites in Pasiltucky, Deale, Harwood and Glen Burnie that don't want you to hunt Black bears.

 

[ktm rider]

Yeah, it's all the upscale urbanites in Pasiltucky, Deale, Harwood and Glen Burnie that don't want you to hunt Black bears.

???? If you are trying to paint Anne Arundel County ( pop: 537,000 ) as a rural Maryland area like Garrett County (pop: 30,000) that has the same issues, I'm not buying it.

 

[oupa]

Mountaintop removal mining is simply a way to get coal while eliminating as many jobs as possible. That's why they choose it over conventional mining. Have you actually looked at what they do? Have you seen the spoil piles and waste impoundments? Tracked the cancer clusters in the communities downwind? Time to realize that coals day has come and gone. There are better alternatives. Coal is getting killed right now because natural gas is cheaper. No other reason. When natural gas prices rise, coal may become viable again. Same thing happens over and over again. When oil was cheap in the 50's and 60's coal production dropped like a rock. It took the OPEC oil embargo in the 70's to make coal competitive again. It's cylclic. Deal with it.

Fracking may be a productive way of gathering natural gas. We can't adequately evaluate the impacts because industry has chosen to keep too much information secret. If they want to pump chemicals into the drinking water aquifers they need to be honest about what they are putting in. Then we can evaluate the cost benefit and decide if it's something we want to do. As long as we are kept in the dark they can keep that out of here, thank you very much.

As far as your suggested introduction area, overlay a tax parcel map on that would you? if the land isn't heavily fragmented (lots of larger, state owned parcels) then it would be a good candidate. I see the two main reservoir areas but am not sure of the other territory you have boxed in. Possible introduction areas should be chosen by where the most suitable habitat is and shouldn't be limited by arbitrary "east" vs "west" distinctions.

Look, I'm not out to pick a fight. I'D LOVE TO SEE ELK RESTRORED!!! But I am a realist. What does it take to make people realize THERE ISN'T ENOUGH ROOM! I'm not making this up. Look it up yourselves. Check out the elk programs in KY, PA, WI. Check out the research done by VA. and WV, particularly where they've deduced elk ARE NOT a viable option!

Bottom line; the elk range in the two primary "elk states" in the east (PA & KY) cover over 6,400 SQUARE MILES EACH! All of Garrett county - the whole freaking county, homes, stores, schools, roads, etc. - is only 650 sq. miles! It may look like endless wilderness when you drive through but its not. People live and work there. Well, when they can find work they do.

A huntable population of elk in W.MD is A PIPE DREAM! Ain't gonna happen in the lifetimes of anyone here. That leaves us with a view-able population. Best scenario for that would be to game fence Rocky Gap and do it there where O'Malley has already engaged cronies to build a casino. The excuse for bring that mess to our backyards is "economic development" to, so why not combine them? Its perfect! When the captive herd gets over populated they can run a "management hunt" for your "average Joe." Of course that would require exterminating the entire deer population inside such a fence before elk could be introduced since DNR has established the CWD containment area essentially east of Cumberland. The other reason when they speak of "western Maryland" they're actually saying GARRETT COUNTY!

You see, I'm not upset about the freaking elk. I'm upset that we're spending time & money on this absurd idea when DNR can't afford what they already have!
...and please, do not insult me with the line about RMEF footing the bill. Sure they're paying for things like studies, polls, etc. but there are DNR staff attached to every one. RMEF IS NOT paying their salaries to be there and when they're attending such functions, their regular job is going un-done.
You see, like all things in government... it comes down to money. Maybe you weren't aware DNR requested to MORE THAN DOUBLE hunting fees last winter. Why did they do that? According to them, they don't have enough money to do their job... they're PRESENT JOB!!! Convince me it'd be a good idea to add considerably more work (elk require extensive management - again, see PA, WV, VA studies) when they can't answer their present responsibilities?

BTW - quit worrying about MTR mining. With MD's regulations it'll never happen anyway. Just as with O'malley purposely blocking gas extraction plans to appease the down-state greenies, while we continue to see opportunity lessen daily. Remember that these companies are using horizontal drilling. Do you really think wells in WV & PA are not going to suck OUR gas out from under us? ...and they're worried about gambling money being spent in WV and DE...

Check this out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BB0aFPXr4n4

 

[oupa]

Oh and by the way... Please re-read what I wrote previously. Particularly regarding the BEARS, since ktm rider brought it up.
Once again, I'm not pulling this outs my ...hat. This is scientific research available and I'm sure, known to those trying to sell us this bill of goods.

...The elk range in both PA and KY, the most referenced eastern U.S. examples are both over 6,400 sq. miles, each! Over two dozen counties.
Both PA & WV have already established that they DO NOT want elk in neighboring counties so any wandering across state lines would likely be fair game.
PA's program begun in 1913, 99 years ago! Yeah, they have elk hunting. 46 antlerless and 19 bull tags this year by lottery. Your chances of getting a bear tag in MD. are better. How long you gonna wait to hunt elk in MD?
KY's program has been much better. Begun less than 20 years ago and overwhelmingly over target with the largest herd east of the Mississippi. They have NO elk predators in the area though. Bears are the #1 predator of elk calves*, and there are NO BEARS in the KY elk range.
Whats the bear population density in Garrett County?

...As a life-long hunter AND a student of early MD. history, particularly western Maryland history, nobody would like to see elk restored more than me. The cold hard truth however is that there simply is not enough space for them. Even in 1800, Meshach Browning was still hunting wolves and panthers in Garrett county but elk were already long gone... as were bison and wild Indians!

Yeah, it'd be nice but the cold hard truth is it's simply a bad idea. That said... DNR will probably try it!

[* Predator-Prey Workshop: Cause-specific Mortality of Rocky Mountain Elk Calves.]