firing colt 1851 navy for first time

[bach]

Fired our colt 1851 navy for the first time today. We used hornaday 36 Cal balls. We loaded powder, then patch, then bore butter around edge of each chamber, then ball. Used rammer, but the ball was stuck to the rammer when we removed the rammer. I guess it stuck cause rammer head is cupped and bore butter made it sticky. Long story short...the balls easily fell out of the chambers.

If the rammer had a flat face, I think it would not stick/suck to the ball. Or are hornaday 36 Cal balls undersized? Or something else? Thanks.

 

[4570inMD]

Section 6 of the Manual says to use No. 10 caps, 0.378" diameter lead balls, and 15-20 grains of FFFg black powder. No patch needed; look for the shaved circle of lead as each ball is pressed into each cylinder.

View attachment Colt 1851 Navy Manual.pdf

4570inMD

 

[TexasBob]

Not doubting you know what you got but there is a colt 1851 navy that .36 cal and a colt 1851 navy that is .44 cal that could explain how the lead ball is “failing” out.
The .36 cal ball is .375-.380 in diameter and should leave a lead ring when pressed into the cylinder. I would double check the size of the ball your using.

I have a black powder colt Army .44 cal cap and ball that I had over 30 years, the major difference is the barrel on the Navy it a hex the Army has a round barrel. I shoot it 50-60 times in that 30 year its a mess to shoot and clean but fun, I use bees wax not grease but does the same thing stops flash overs.


My loads are Powder, patch I use precut wonder wads, leadball, BeesWax to seal the cylinder which also lubricates.
.
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[bach]

I never considered the difference in 36 and 44 cause it seemed so large, but it's only 5/64". I'll check that.

 

[Threeband]

Are you using .360 balls? You want at least .375, and I prefer .380.

The balls should be big enough so that a ring of lead is shaved off as the rammer forces them into the chambers. Don't worry about the ball being too big - any excess lead will be shaved off, and that's what you want.

The only thing you want between the powder and ball is a Wonder Wad or equivalent, and that is optional. I never used the Wonder Wads myself, though many people swear by them. I always used a maximum charge of FFFg (as much as would fit), a .380 ball, and a bit of wheel bearing grease to seal.
(I should say many target shooters use a reduced powder charge, then fill the remaining space with either corn meal or cream of wheat. I tried that, didn't see an advantage. Maximum powder charge is less fuss and more fun.)





As for those so-called ".44 Navys" that were mentioned, there never was such a monstrosity back in the 1800s. Back then, everybody knew "a revolver of Navy caliber" meant .36, while "Army caliber" meant .44. To talk about a ".44 Navy" is like talking about a ".45 caliber 9mm".

I know there are manufacturers producing crappy novelty guns intended for the uninformed low-budget impulse market which are a sort of monstrous cross between an 1860 Army and a bored-out '51 Navy barrel. As you can guess by now, those things give me the horrors.

By definition, if it's a .44, then it is "a revolver of Army caliber."

My first handgun was a '51 Navy. It was an Uberti I picked up at the Dallas gun show back in '81. Of course by that time, the new-fangled cartridge guns were getting pretty common... But anyway...

The '51 Navy was always .36 caliber. In fact, back in the day, "Navy caliber" meant .36, while "Army caliber" meant .44. Those so-called ".44 navys" are oxymorons.

Colt made .31s on a small frame, .36s on a medium frame, and .44s on a humongous frame: the Dragoons. The Navy was popular because is was the ideal size, but Colt just could not fit a six shot .44 cylinder on that Navy-size frame.

The a designer (was it Root???) had the brilliant idea of rebating the cylinder: making a cylinder with a step in it, with the rear section the smaller Navy diameter, and the front section enlarged to hold six rounds of .44. The frame had to be stepped also, but otherwise it was the same as the Navy frame. The new medium frame .44 was the 1860 Army. If you look at a good photo of a '60 Army (or better yet, handle the real thing), you will see the step in the frame matching the rebated cylinder.

Those horrible abominations sold as .44 Navys use the stepped frame and rebated cylinder of the '60 Army with the slab-sided barrel and simple hinged loading lever of the '51, but in .44. Nothing like that was ever produced by Colt.

Your CVA Navy is the correct .36 caliber. I hope you succeed getting it completed and shooting. Wild Bill Hickock, Elmer Kieth, and I all favor the '51 Navy.


Check these guys out for parts

http://www.vtigunparts.com/

 

[bach]

I think we have .360 balls...hopefully this is just a noob mistake. There was no lead shaved off. I'm check when I get home. Thanks!

 

[bach]

We fired 0.375 balls today, and it worked fine. I think 0.380 would be better. Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[John from MD]

The .360 balls are meant to be fired in a .36 cal rifle using a patch.

 

[Threeband]

Now you're obligated to buy a .36 caliber rifle.

 

[K31]

Sounds like your balls are too small.

 

[ken792]

Make sure the slugs you use are actually for revolver use. Revolver .36 cal balls are actually 0.376" or so. Rifle (loaded from the muzzle with a patch around the ball) .36 cal balls are 0.35". Revolver .44 cal balls are actually 0.451-0.457" while rifle .45 cal balls are actually 0.44".

Back in the day, the caliber designation was for the groove diameter of the barrel, not the actual diameter of the bullet you used.

 

[bach]

Very cool...thanks for the info.

 

[Tebonski]

Fired our colt 1851 navy for the first time today. We used hornaday 36 Cal balls. We loaded powder, then patch, then bore butter around edge of each chamber, then ball. Used rammer, but the ball was stuck to the rammer when we removed the rammer. I guess it stuck cause rammer head is cupped and bore butter made it sticky. Long story short...the balls easily fell out of the chambers.

If the rammer had a flat face, I think it would not stick/suck to the ball. Or are hornaday 36 Cal balls undersized? Or something else? Thanks.

Did you put bore butter before the ball? I use powder then ball then crisco shortening grease and yes I know it's fattening.

 

[John from MD]

The best way to use lube in a CB is by using a treated wad under the ball and not the traditional way of applying it on top of the ball.

If you use a felt wad on top of the powder, it is more effective. Tests have proven (yes, I have done these tests) that when applied over the ball, much of the lube is blown off during firing. By placing a treated felt wad under the ball, more lubricant survives to find it's way to the forcing cone and barrel softening the powder residue. Using a felt wad also scrapes the residue as it moves down the barrel.

The result of using a wad is more firing without cleaning and better groups.

Treated wads can be purchased but those of us who shoot alot make our own wads. It is easy to do and much cheaper than buying the store bought types, especially Bore Butter. Bore butter is good stuff but the makers must think that the yellow color means they have to charge as if it is gold.

 

[bach]

Since I'm a newb and didn't have any thing to go on, I followed the advice given here,

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Revolver.html

He suggests powder, then patch, then ball, and bore butter just around the edge of each chamber.

 

[John from MD]

Bach

I have no problem with what was stated in the link you posted. It is all good information. However, if you shoot your black powder pistol more than a couple of cylinders full, it is much faster to use the wad over the powder.

I agree that the "dry charged" wads are too dry to work well. Those of us that make wads use a mix of bees wax, parafin and crisco or tallow. These are semi hard but not sticky or greasy. They also remove the need for filling the chamber with cream of wheat or corn meal.

There is a treasure trove of info on shooting replica revolvers on the net. The cheapest place to buy them is Cabelas as they have them on sale every other month. And don't believe anyone who says Pietta is not the same quality as Uberti. Pietta quality control has increased in past years and now, in my opinion, they surpass Uberti.

Oh, one other warning, this hobby is very addicting.

John

 

[bach]

I'm a Colonial American history buff and always intended to get a flintlock musket/rifle as my first gun, but my son helped sidetrack me into WWII era rifles. Recently I've been looking at a trade gun kit from Clay Smith http://www.claysmithguns.com/Trade_gun_kits.htm; it's a flintlock. I'm considering it cause my son said he'd be interested in building it with me, and I've tried to expose him to woodworking (that's another hobby) but he's always said, "Dad, that's your thing!". Now I just need to sell some woodworking hand tools to get some extra cash for the kit.

 

[bach]

I have no problem with what was stated in the link you posted. It is all good information. However, if you shoot your black powder pistol more than a couple of cylinders full, it is much faster to use the wad over the powder.

John, forgot to ask about the last sentence quoted above. I loaded powder into the cylinders, and then the patches, and then the balls. Is that correct? Or is a wad different than a patch?

 

[John from MD]

A felt wad is different than a cloth patch. Cloth patches are meant for rifles that use patched balls. In those rifles, the bore is larger than the ball. The patch, usually .015-.020, takes up the space and it is the patch that actually engages the rifling and not the ball.

Just google felt wads for cb revolvers and you should find plenty of info on them.

 

[bach]

We are using wads, not patches. Sorry for the confusion.