FN HiPower Agentine Police is it worth it?

[why2kmax]

So was poking around a local gun shop and came across an Argentine FN HiPower from the Buenos Aires Police, internal security and was wondering if anyone had a good handle on what its worth or if it is worth buying.

It was basically this gun

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=536031544

but the one I looked at was in Much better shape. Good blueing, little bit of holster wear on the front sides of the slide. good brown wood grips with solid checkering.

I didnt see an import mark anywhere. MIGHT have been small on the front of the grip but I dont recall seeing one anywhere.

It had the police crest on the top, DIV INTERNA SEC on right side, Policia prov Aires-61 on left. 5 or poss 6 digit SN matched on barrel, slide and frame as well as both Magazines. Mags were also numbered 1 and 2

Came with the box, didnt ask about a holster. I left my phone in the car so I didnt get pics (sorry).

Shop was asking $630 and it was a consignment.

Price seemed maybe a bit high but it was in good condition. But I dont know the value of this variant etc etc.

Thoughts? Worth looking into?

 

[BigDaddy]

There is another one on GB with a Century billboard import mark, non ring hammer and synthetic grips. It's not worth posting a link to, but the buy it now is 495 or so.

Seems to me there were some Hi powers in the C&R thread that weren't really C&R in the 400 range as well, Israeli as I recall. The looked rode hard and put away wet, so 630 doesn't sound bad to me. But there are more knowledgeable Hi Power guys around, than me.

 

[Bertfish]

I'd pay that for a decent quality Hi Power. Was it C&R? That'd make me even more likely to pick it up

 

[why2kmax]

I'd pay that for a decent quality Hi Power. Was it C&R? That'd make me even more likely to pick it up

from what I read the Aires-61 means its a 1961 so should be

 

[joppaj]

To me it's only worth that much of you care about the police crest on it.

 

[Bertfish]

from what I read the Aires-61 means its a 1961 so should be

What shop? May go have a look

 

[redsandman6]

The non c&r hi powers from aim surplus were $450.

I think freestate had a used hi power for $499. I don't know any info on it.

I think it all depends on the condition of the gun.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[Machodoc]

So was poking around a local gun shop and came across an Argentine FN HiPower from the Buenos Aires Police, internal security and was wondering if anyone had a good handle on what its worth or if it is worth buying.

[...]

I didnt see an import mark anywhere. MIGHT have been small on the front of the grip but I dont recall seeing one anywhere.

It had the police crest on the top, DIV INTERNA SEC on right side, Policia prov Aires-61 on left. 5 or poss 6 digit SN matched on barrel, slide and frame as well as both Magazines. Mags were also numbered 1 and 2

Came with the box, didnt ask about a holster. I left my phone in the car so I didnt get pics (sorry).

Shop was asking $630 and it was a consignment.

Price seemed maybe a bit high but it was in good condition. But I dont know the value of this variant etc etc.

Thoughts? Worth looking into?

That's pretty much the high end of market for that particular pistol, but if it's in the condition you say, and there's no import mark, I'd personally pop for it -- but I tend to focus on Argentine firearms for a substantial part of my collection.

If you decide not to get it, I'd appreciate it if you'd IM the info to me.

To me it's only worth that much of you care about the police crest on it.

True, and it might not be an FN Hi Power (the one on GB is an FN). It could be a licensed Argentine copy. Still, if you are into Argentine guns, one in very nice condition, without an import mark, and with that crest, is interesting enough to squeeze the bank a little bit.

 

[Armati]

.



True, and it's not an FN Hi Power. It's a licensed Argentine copy. Still, if you are into Argentine guns, one in very nice condition, without an import mark, and with that crest, is interesting enough to squeeze the bank a little bit.

I would bet it is a licensed copy. I have one. It's a Hi Power, plain and simple. But $650 seems like way too much. $450 is about right and not a nickel over $500 out the door unless there is a nation wide shortage of cheap Hi Powers.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[why2kmax]

That's pretty much the high end of market for that particular pistol, but if it's in the condition you say, and there's no import mark, I'd personally pop for it -- but I tend to focus on Argentine firearms for a substantial part of my collection.

True, and it's not an FN Hi Power. It's a licensed Argentine copy. Still, if you are into Argentine guns, one in very nice condition, without an import mark, and with that crest, is interesting enough to squeeze the bank a little bit.

Question Doc. you say its a licensed Argentine copy. What exactly do you mean?

Based on the markings and what it looks like and is:

marked “FN Browning, Policia Prov.BS Aires-61” on the right side, “FN Browning DIV Interna. Sec.” on the left side. It has a crest on the hammer end of the top of the slide.

and

-blued
-forged frame
-internal extractor (3/12/12 update: recent posts indicate replacements are VERY difficult to obtain, and one should avoid +P ammo.)
-wood grips
-no lanyard ring
-5-digit SN one above the other, on the frame, slide, and ejector/barrel.


Ive read in a number of places the Following with regard to the above characteristics:

QUOTE:
-A number of these were imported several years back. This is a genuine Fabrique Nationale, manufactured in Belgium. They are not the Fabrica Militar licensed Hi Power that was made to FN specs on old HP equipment in Argentina. Later FM continued to produce HP's after their licensing contract expired. FM continues to produce an HP copy to this day.
END QUOTE

To me a "copy" would be one made on similar equipment in Argentina, but a real FN would be made in Belgium, now whether for export or not does that matter? Im trying to determine/learn the distinction you are making above by saying its a copy.

That part in italics maybe a perpetuation of false info copied and posted elsewhere but I dont know.

 

[Machodoc]

Question Doc. you say its a licensed Argentine copy. What exactly do you mean?

Based on the markings and what it looks like and is:

marked “FN Browning, Policia Prov.BS Aires-61” on the right side, “FN Browning DIV Interna. Sec.” on the left side. It has a crest on the hammer end of the top of the slide.

and

-blued
-forged frame
-internal extractor (3/12/12 update: recent posts indicate replacements are VERY difficult to obtain, and one should avoid +P ammo.)
-wood grips
-no lanyard ring
-5-digit SN one above the other, on the frame, slide, and ejector/barrel.


Ive read in a number of places the Following with regard to the above characteristics:

QUOTE:
-A number of these were imported several years back. This is a genuine Fabrique Nationale, manufactured in Belgium. They are not the Fabrica Militar licensed Hi Power that was made to FN specs on old HP equipment in Argentina. Later FM continued to produce HP's after their licensing contract expired. FM continues to produce an HP copy to this day.
END QUOTE

To me a "copy" would be one made on similar equipment in Argentina, but a real FN would be made in Belgium, now whether for export or not does that matter? Im trying to determine/learn the distinction you are making above by saying its a copy.

That part in italics maybe a perpetuation of false info copied and posted elsewhere but I dont know.

I just corrected my post as you were writing yours. Sorry -- had just burned my hand when I started writing the reply, and was a bit distracted.

If it says "FN Belgium", or "FN Browning", that's what it is -- but the Argentines did get a license to produce copies, so there are also a lot of Argentine Hi Powers that were not made by FN. Sorry for the confusion.

Added:

The Hi Powers made on license in Argentina were originally intended for domestic use, but soon found an export market -- notably, the U.S. The finish on the Argentine Hi Powers is more of a coating than a bluing, so they tend to be pretty easy to spot, but some of them were stripped and blued later.

 

[Threeband]

AIM had well-used C&R FN Hi Powers for $550 last spring. They sold out quickly.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=173177


AIM shipped them to Marylanders without the magazine. If you're seeing that Argentine in a Maryland shop, it will have to sell with no magazine.

 

[why2kmax]

ah ok, makes sense. Thanks Doc

 

[Machodoc]

AIM had well-used C&R FN Hi Powers for $550 last spring. They sold out quickly.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=173177


AIM shipped them to Marylanders without the magazine. If you're seeing that Argentine in a Maryland shop, it will have to sell with no magazine.

They now have some Mark 2 FNs, and some Israeli Mark 3s for sale. Go to their website and search on FN.

I think these are just in.

 

[6cylrider98]

Not sure if it is worth that much. Got one of those in the box, is a FM referb. says Fn Belgium on the slide. Looks and feels new, frame looks like they got a little wild with the buffer but otherwise its a new Fn. all matching even the 2 mags. Got it a few years ago and was a steal . Everybody needs a Hi Power.!

 

[chooks9]

I actually have an Argentine contract FN Hi Power very similar to the one the OP appears to be talking about. Mine came in a paper box with a rubber stamp mark stating if was "refurbished" by FM (the Argentine armory who made the High Power copies.). Mine has the crest, the "Policia Prov Buenos Aires-61" and "DIV INTERNA SEC" engraved on it. I paid no more than $500 for it in the middle of the 2013 panic with two mags and the magazine disconnect removed. Outside of the former Israeli police Hi Power Mk.IIIs being sold by AIM right now, these are probably about the least expensive way to get a real Hi Power. Mine functions fine but has a worn bore. It was reblued and looks nice, but is clearly not as fine as the original FN bluing. Mine also came with Uncle Mike's rubber grips, probably something an importer put on it as per my searches.

If you want more info about the "DIV INTERNA SEC," you can Google search and find a few threads talking about the potentially "Checkered" past these pistols may have had a hand in...

 

[rob-cubed]

I had an Argentine. Not discounting the history or marks as it relates to collectibility, my experience with FMs is they are rougher than FNs and the mainspring is especially stiff. Perhaps the police imports were comparable to Israelis but the latter is fairly common and a good buy if you want an original Hi-power.

 

[Machodoc]

When talking about Argentine Hi-Powers, you "sorta-kinda" are talking about three different groups of handguns.

• The first group is FN Herstal guns that were made in Belgium on contract to Argentina. These are true FN Hi-Powers.
• The second group are FM (DGFM, of Sistema fame) Hi-Powers that were made on Belgian machinery and with FN supervision -- just as was done before with the Colt company and the Argentine "Sistema" Colts. These were not made "on worn-out machinery," as has been stated in various places on the innerwebz. These are high-quality licensed copies that are usually marked for a branch of the police or military.
• The third group are Hi Powers made by FM for civilian and export purposes. These are the last guns made, and not under FN supervision. They are still very good firearms, but don't have the same finish as the earlier guns had. Some shortcuts seem to have been taken in the fit of some of this last group, too. Some seem to be stiff until either well broken in, or given some TLC by a gunsmith. Even those that seem to be a bit stiff at first are still very good firearms, though. They just have more of a "dipped" look to the finish, rather than the bluing given earlier FN and FM guns.

 

[somd_mustangs]

It sure sounds like the gun referenced by the OP is of the first group, based on description and the production date.

To me if it's a FN-mfg pistol, and IF it's in good condition (90+%) with original finish and no import mark - that's a very good price.
( Disclosure - I really like Hi Powers and I really hate import marks so no mark gets a premium from me )

The stuff being sold in the $500 range is typically either beat or refurbished.

It's also a function of what you want to do with it, if it's a purely a range/carry gun than you probably wouldn't care as much about the originality or finish so much,
you just want a gun that works and is reliable.
In that case, there are more economical options.

 

[Machodoc]

It sure sounds like the gun referenced by the OP is of the first group, based on description and the production date.

Yep! There's still a lot of research to be done on this particular model of gun. The Internet is full of speculation stated as fact, facts, and complete BS. Lots of posters confuse this model with the later FM models, etc., so they make claims that aren't true. I've even seen references to a couple of these guns (marked with the "61" that seems common to them all) having "Nazi proofmarks" ... so either someone is full of crap, the markings are forgeries, or the "61" has nothing to do with a production date. Lots of unanswered questions.

Perhaps most unfounded is speculation that these are related to "death squads" under Peron. (The same speculation is widely distributed as "fact" about other Argentine firearms with certain markings.) The truth appears to be that Peron knew far better than to have any group that was labeled as his "death squad", much less gave them specially marked guns proclaiming them to be death squad firearms. It's absolutely true that Peron did have secret groups of people who "disappeared" opponents, but they seem to have been drawn from the Argentine Air Force and other military, with senior officers carrying out Peron's orders.