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  • Antarctica

    YEEEEEHAWWW!!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 29, 2012
    1,739
    Southern Anne Arundel
    So I've had a long standing interest in microwave back haul systems and their applicability to amateur radio. We're talking since back in the days of packet radio before widespread internet availability killed it - I always thought the next step was a microwave backbone/backhaul system that localized packet systems would connect to to move traffic much further than could be easily done with relatively low speed packet radio running on 2m VHF.

    In the past couple of years, the AREDN mesh system has made some interesting progress. I've configured a few nodes and played with it, but there's not enough connectivity in this area to really make it useful. Heavy vegetation and a lack or mountain top sites, mixed with not enough amateur radio density/interest somewhat preclude it taking off on the east coast as well as it has done out west. It also has a lot of overhead being a mesh type system. Most east cost applications are built on the selling point of it being an emergency comms secondary/fallback system, so some hospitals and municipalities have given implementation groups access to building rooftops, towers, etc. to get some minimally viable network up and running.

    The equipment AREDN uses are microwave WIFI links that can carry signal up to about 40 miles to another link unit, as long as there is line of sight.

    But you really don't need to run AREDN. With enough interest, and excluding the amateur radio aspects, if a bunch of regular joes that could see each other, a backbone radio linked system could be put up pretty easily. What it gets you is local connectivity to any servers running on it or linked to it (i.e. like my main source of local info - Maryland Shooters!!). Other services - VOIP, Cameras, etc also. So if the internet goes down, there is an alternative IP based comms system out there.

    Its a hell of a lot of effort for something that is essentially useless until you need it, but would be basically impossible to setup when its too late.

    Dumb idea? Total overkill? Maybe. Maybe just a chance to learn some good stuff, see if a group of people could get something running. There'd be a huge amount of stuff to figure out and also some risks (security, what people are using it for, etc.).

    Anyway, just a thought I've had.
     

    Johnny5k

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 24, 2020
    1,021
    Sounds kind of like the helium network. Is it anything similar, or am I way off base?
     

    Antarctica

    YEEEEEHAWWW!!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 29, 2012
    1,739
    Southern Anne Arundel
    Sounds kind of like the helium network. Is it anything similar, or am I way off base?
    I'd have to read more, but that seems to me like they are just building a (freely accessible?) network on top of the internet. Like each node is still internet connected, so that if you connect through the node, you're essentially connected to the internet. I'd nee to read more, but if enough of the core, centralized switch systems on the underlying internet went down, it seems like the whole helium network would also collapse. It seems like their intent it to provide free access through the nodes, but still access to the internet.

    A backbone is a separate hardware system. Doesn't necessarily need to connect to the internet. Only provides the limited services on it. Operates more or less the same but handles its own switching and routing, etc..
     

    Johnny5k

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 24, 2020
    1,021
    I'd have to read more, but that seems to me like they are just building a (freely accessible?) network on top of the internet. Like each node is still internet connected, so that if you connect through the node, you're essentially connected to the internet. I'd nee to read more, but if enough of the core, centralized switch systems on the underlying internet went down, it seems like the whole helium network would also collapse. It seems like their intent it to provide free access through the nodes, but still access to the internet.

    A backbone is a separate hardware system. Doesn't necessarily need to connect to the internet. Only provides the limited services on it. Operates more or less the same but handles its own switching and routing, etc..
    I think you are right. Now that you mention it, I am sure they do not have the bandwidth to provide what the internet does. For lower data needs though, I thought it was intended to (eventually) be a stand alone system. So maybe a hybrid of sorts?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,757
    So I've had a long standing interest in microwave back haul systems and their applicability to amateur radio. We're talking since back in the days of packet radio before widespread internet availability killed it - I always thought the next step was a microwave backbone/backhaul system that localized packet systems would connect to to move traffic much further than could be easily done with relatively low speed packet radio running on 2m VHF.

    In the past couple of years, the AREDN mesh system has made some interesting progress. I've configured a few nodes and played with it, but there's not enough connectivity in this area to really make it useful. Heavy vegetation and a lack or mountain top sites, mixed with not enough amateur radio density/interest somewhat preclude it taking off on the east coast as well as it has done out west. It also has a lot of overhead being a mesh type system. Most east cost applications are built on the selling point of it being an emergency comms secondary/fallback system, so some hospitals and municipalities have given implementation groups access to building rooftops, towers, etc. to get some minimally viable network up and running.

    The equipment AREDN uses are microwave WIFI links that can carry signal up to about 40 miles to another link unit, as long as there is line of sight.

    But you really don't need to run AREDN. With enough interest, and excluding the amateur radio aspects, if a bunch of regular joes that could see each other, a backbone radio linked system could be put up pretty easily. What it gets you is local connectivity to any servers running on it or linked to it (i.e. like my main source of local info - Maryland Shooters!!). Other services - VOIP, Cameras, etc also. So if the internet goes down, there is an alternative IP based comms system out there.

    Its a hell of a lot of effort for something that is essentially useless until you need it, but would be basically impossible to setup when its too late.

    Dumb idea? Total overkill? Maybe. Maybe just a chance to learn some good stuff, see if a group of people could get something running. There'd be a huge amount of stuff to figure out and also some risks (security, what people are using it for, etc.).

    Anyway, just a thought I've had.
    Sounds like overkill. You can run 900MHz for connectivity. Either LoWAN or 802.11ah (HaLow). There are some of both types of adapters out there. Despite there being fewer, I'd be most interested in 802.11ha. Conceivably with the right antennas you likely could push several miles LOS with obstructions even without boosted radio power.


    The limited testing I've seen, you could manage a mile or two LOS with obstructions with a 2-3dBi or so omni on both ends.

    I've seen around 5-8Mbps out to around 3/4 of a mile LOS with 2-3dBi antennas with 3rd party testing (I don't have any of the equipment).

    It is unfortunately fairly low power. Not like you are cranking 200w or something.

    If you have unobstructed LOS, you'd probably be better off with high gain WiFi 2.4GHz or 5GHz. That stuff is plenty capable of stretching a dozen miles plus if there are NO obstructions. But if you have ANYTHING in the way, I'd move to 900MHz. That'll go through some trees or even other buildings (within reason) at a distance of hundreds of yards no problems at all.

    LoWAN, which is pretty low data rate, I've seen people test very low speed data connections for things like sensors and text communication to a distance of several miles in suburban areas and in wooded rural areas that are flat (so still line of sight, but lots of obstructions).

    Oh other interest, BaoFeng/BTech just released a text and GPS capable GMRS radio. You are still talking only that based on FCC requirements, but since the only option before was Motorola and $$$$ for text capable GMRS. Also, despite FCC requirements that such text/GPS capable radios must have a fixed antenna and the data generally not relayed, apparently the BTech text/GMRS radio just have its antenna screwed in with a dab of glue to hold it in place. The early reviews I've seen of it (it was JUST released a couple of weeks ago), the text/GPS coordinates will pass on at least some repeaters (I imagine it depends on the repeater settings).

    IMHO, replacing or supplementing the internet of SHTF doesn't seem like a total waste to me. However, what you are really going to want are things like voice, text, GPS sharing capability (keeping in mind if things went REALLY balls deep SHTF, GPS may not be available. Keep in mind that GPS DOES rely on ground stations to keep the system coordinated and accurate. Lose the ground stations and positioning of the GPS satellites will become less accurate/more out of synch. I have no idea the rate of decay of GPS accuracy if all ground stations and control were lost for the GPS constellation, but I'd assume within a year or two GPS would be effectively worthless (at best accurate to hundreds of meters).

    Other things that are highly useful are messaging/announcing services so you and your recipient for voice or text don't have to be reachable at the same time.

    Don't get me wrong, I see what transmitting data gets you. And it is useful, but I don't think it is nearly as critical. Do I need my security camera feed if I am 8 miles from my house? Because if I am that far away, I probably can't respond to anything I'd see on the security cameras anyway. It isn't like I can just call the police. I guess I could try to radio my neighbor, but I'd also hope that in such a situation, everyone is VERY closely looking after each other. Maybe if I was close to, but not at home, but longer ranged/higher powered WiFI and LoWAN/802.11ah can handle that. Sending an email to my buddy a few miles away, useful. Then again, if we have a messaging capable repeater setup, I can just record a message for my buddy and he can check the repeater to see if there are any messages for him. Or if you have things setup for text, you can see the text later (so long as the radio can receive it, even if you aren't at your radio).

    Just some thoughts.
     
    Last edited:

    Antarctica

    YEEEEEHAWWW!!!!
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 29, 2012
    1,739
    Southern Anne Arundel
    No time to respond to lazarus, but have been looking into the TARPN networks. Pretty much old school packet radio revived. Ordered 10 TNC boards and am planning on building up 5. Found a couple of radios. Raspberry pi's are the missing link although I have 1 on hand.
     

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