Just commenting for others.
Yeah, I saw that. Lipstick on a pig.
It may be a pig but it's a deer killin' pig.
Just commenting for others.
Yeah, I saw that. Lipstick on a pig.
Do you reload your own ammo?
I'd rather experiment with different ingredients to try to come up with my own load than pay the hefty prices they charge for their ammo.
Maybe it shoots really good in their test rifles but I want to know what I can come up with myself.
BTW- I'm not taking this really seriously. Hunting season is just about over here and I want to fool around with other "stuff".
Yes, I do. I had been teaching precision handloading classes for the last few years as well.Do you reload your own ammo?
As would I, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t.I'd rather experiment with different ingredients to try to come up with my own load than pay the hefty prices they charge for their ammo.
In shooting over 15,000 rounds of Federal Gold Medal Match MYSELF, and then watching students shoot it for years (I have been teaching since the early 90s), I will tell you unequivocally that it is NOT just "their test rifles", it is almost EVERY rifle out there. Federal utilized the OCW node for this ammo and this makes it extremely tolerant of rifle variation. If a rifle doesn't shoot this ammo well, there is something wrong with the rifle or its handling.Maybe it shoots really good in their test rifles but I want to know what I can come up with myself.
I am. You're talking about wasting elements of your life, as I have wasted elements of my own. I'm even willing to spend a little typing time over coffee on a Sunday morning if I could help someone avoid some of my own stupid mistakes.BTW- I'm not taking this really seriously.
^ This should be a sticky, just like everything else that Ed writes. :-)
^ This should be a sticky, just like everything else that Ed writes. :-)
Thank you Pinecone.
Yes, I do. I had been teaching precision handloading classes for the last few years as well.
I have been handloading my own ammo since 1971. I was a slow starter though, I have been shooting since 1965 and made it into my first rifle team in 1969. None of that past stuff matters though, today's facts matter much more to both of us.As would I, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t.
In handloading for over 45 years, I would be less than honest to say that I never wasted my time and money chasing ghosts and false concepts. In fact, it has been a LOT of time and LOT of money over the years, doing things the hard way, backing into stuff, trying to polish a turd...
Of course, most of the problem then was a lack of outside input and the benefit of other handloader's successes, and failures...a nearly complete lack of user-level info exchange. All we had were rather sketchy loading manuals and spotty second hand information. Can you even imagine getting ALL of your supplemental shooting and handloading questions answered by a gun shop clerk or a guy at the next bench on the range?
Today is different.
We realize that a well built rifle will shoot almost anything well, while a turd MIGHT find one marginally acceptable load in 20 tries. Ugh, the money I have poured down the barrel of defective rifles and stories my loading journals could tell, searching for that magic load that would make a crooked chamber or uneven bolt lugs shoot well...
Maybe I could help you avoid some of this wasted work, time and money, if you wanted to.
We have the venue and freedom to exchange ideas and information and we are not forced to work in relative isolation, re-inventing the wheel time after time. I learn something new every day and we all enjoy the benefit of a huge brain trust.
In shooting over 15,000 rounds of Federal Gold Medal Match MYSELF, and then watching students shoot it for years (I have been teaching since the early 90s), I will tell you unequivocally that it is NOT just "their test rifles", it is almost EVERY rifle out there. Federal utilized the OCW node for this ammo and this makes it extremely tolerant of rifle variation. If a rifle doesn't shoot this ammo well, there is something wrong with the rifle or its handling.
Most handloaders would do well to even *equal* the performance of FGMM, let alone exceed it, and it has literally become the gold standard for factory ammo. I built myself a .308 match/training rifle about 5-6 years ago that I use with students and take to matches myself. It will drive FGMM 168s into 1/4 MOA 100 yard groups time after time. It will shoot their 175s into 1/2 MOA. I have an unmodified LTR that will shoot the 168s almost as well.
In all this fooling around, I have come to very strongly believe that if a .308 rifle will not shoot FGMM 168s well, nothing else will shoot well through it either. it is an excellent "control group" of known performance with which to evaluate an unknown rifle.
The reason I suggest you shoot one box of FGMM 168s is simply to evaluate your own rifle's potential before wasting time and money trying to get match grade performance from handloads from an unknown potential.
I am NOT trying to get you to shoot factory match ammo as a habit. I am suggesting that you check actual battery voltage with a known good voltmeter, instead of just seeing if the headlights might come on and how bright they look.
It should be clear to you from the range of comments above that match grade performance is probably not to be expected from the Remington 770. This is fine and not a defect, it is simply an economy hunting rifle with built-in limitations. It may or may not shoot well enough to show you the difference in bullet design/quality, particularly between good match bullets. My own SWAG is that it will not, but without a valid and known-good control sample, what do we actually know? Nothing at all...just speculation and anecdotal (it'll kill a deer!!) "evidence".
Sure, it kills deer, but so what? After having killed a bunch myself, I am quite clear on the size and location of the vitals and if you can consistently hit a 1 gallon milk jug with your rifle (about 8 MOA at 100 yards), you can consistently kill deer, which has exactly nothing to do with evaluating match grade bullets.
Having shot with hundreds of students and having participated in matches of many disciplines, I would bet that most rifles out there cannot tell the difference in ANY of the popular match bullets today. They are ALL great bullets. When I was shooting F-Class comps twice a month (10" 10 rings at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards), I didn't care whether we used Lapua, Norma, Sierras or Bergers. Technique and wind were MUCH more important that miniscule bullet differences.
The only real difference is how compatible your bullet at hand will be with the particular bore/throat geometry of your rifle. This means that no matter how successful someone else was with any given bullet, it may or may not duplicate in your rifle. Some rifles simply will not shoot Berger VLD style bullets, while Sierra MKs are quite forgiving and shoot well in most rifles, but how about yours?
The only way to tell is to test. Testing is necessary, but test all you want and if you are trying to achieve 1/2 MOA precision in a rifle that will only deliver 1 MOA, you will be wasting your time. Much as I have wasted my own time in the past trying to find a good load for a rifle that wouldn't have recognized a good load if you shoved it up it's feed ramp...
You could get a sample of every match bullet out there, a few pounds of powder and burn your bore out testing, trying to find a sub-MOA load for a 2 MOA rifle, and NEVER find a suitable solution. Assimilate this key concept and the rest of this makes sense.
Or, you could step into the light and simply see what you're actually working with (shoot some FGMM 168s) and know what to strive for before the investment.
So this puts us back to trying to find out how well YOUR rifle actually shoots before trying to discern the very best load, which is what I has suggested in my previous post - shoot some control groups with known good ammo to see if it is ever worth buying match bullets.I am. You're talking about wasting elements of your life, as I have wasted elements of my own. I'm even willing to spend a little typing time over coffee on a Sunday morning if I could help someone avoid some of my own stupid mistakes.
I don't see it as a waste. If I wanted a precision/match rifle I'd spend all that money on one.
Do I care if I can shoot 1/2 MOA with the 770?
No.
It does what I bought it for- kills deer. Anything else is gravy or just for chits and grins.
I don't see it as a waste. If I wanted a precision/match rifle I'd spend all that money on one.
Do I care if I can shoot 1/2 MOA with the 770?
No.
It does what I bought it for- kills deer. Anything else is gravy or just for chits and grins.
What's the verdict on them? Are they more accurate than the rest? Etc., Etc., Etc...
I bought a box of 168 gr. ELD Match bullets to test out on my Rem 770 .308 Win but haven't had a chance to shoot them yet.
Believe me the 770 is a crappy rifle. I picked up my precision rifle right after shooting the 770 and was getting .75 MOA, till I stopped shooting it. It wasn't me, it was the rifle.
Almost. You would be surprised.Anyone can make a precision rifle shoot well...
This is like saying a "real driver" can win the Indy with a VW Bug....a rifleman can make a 'budget rifle' shoot well.
The reason I suggest you shoot one box of FGMM 168s is simply to evaluate your own rifle's potential before wasting time and money trying to get match grade performance from handloads from an unknown potential.
I am NOT trying to get you to shoot factory match ammo as a habit. I am suggesting that you check actual battery voltage with a known good voltmeter, instead of just seeing if the headlights might come on and how bright they look.
I'm even willing to spend a little typing time over coffee on a Sunday morning if I could help someone avoid some of my own stupid mistakes.
"Harmonics" is a term with limited application. Yes, yes...I know people talk about it all the time, using the word to "explain" unexplained responses in rifles that are due to small imperfections. Much as the primitive natives on an isolated island believe a helicopter is God, which many of us would probably disagree with but good luck convincing them...this... this is why i enjoy MDShooters forums and the people w/in it. That last block.
What i dont quite follow is, if handloading is building a load for a specific firearm and chamber to match the harmonics of the barrel etc etc... why would factory ammo (made for eveyone's rifle) be a good baseline? I'm 6'4" and getting in a car that's made to "fit everyone" is sometimes a joke. Not that 6'4" is super tall but it's enough that the "typical fit" isn't a good fit.
The reason you are seeing the rifle accept some loads and not others is likely due to a mechanical error or a twist rate incompatibility.I have a budget 308 (Ruger American) and w/ factory ammo i got.. okay groups. A lot of the bad groups was me, for sure. I say this because i replaced it w/ hand load 110gr v-max or even 168gr a-max and i get submoa (5 shots covered by a nickle).
Because "harmonics" is not what's going on.if i know i can get better groups by building a load to MY rifle's harmonics, why use the factory ammo as a baseline?
Very enlightening Ed. I've always been a "harmoics" believer, mostly out of ignorance. Now that you've successfully chased that specter from my brain, I'd love to hear(and understand) the actual reasoning behind the fully floated barrel and what makes one superior to the non-full floated barrel sometime.
Mr Shell,
I won't argue if you are right or wrong cause I'm just a newbie compared to your experience. This might be a tangent to the thread but are you disputing or implying the use of the word Harmonics on this page is incorrect?
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
I had considered this the place to go to review before I worked up any OCW load for any of my rifles which many are Milsurps that I found was mostly a waste of time (which reading your posts explains some of why that is so). My future is only working up OCW loads for rifles of known barrel quality.
I ask because My next reloading venture will be for a new Criterion Barrel AR I just put together cause all the other barrels I had shot crappy even with good bullets which I had believed at the time was 90% of the start to a good load (good bullet is needed for a good accurate/repeatable load). Although I had already shot the Criterion Barrel AR with a pet 69 SMK load and showed it was 1MOA, I'll get a box of Federal Gold Medal Match 223 and give it a try.
My interest in the Hornady ELD was in a future barrel replacement of a 300BLK AR I have. It has a cheap barrel in it and learning how well the Criterion 223 barrel shot, plan to invest in a new barrel this winter.
Glad I opened up this thread.
Hi Melnic, please call me 'Ed'...my dad was Mr. Shell.Mr Shell,
As a rule, I would NEVER contradict Dan Newberry and would likely re-examine my own take on it if I found us to be at odds over something. Dan has spent huge amount of time immersed in this too. Dan and I have been talking ballistics since before either of us understood exactly why a one number BC is bogus in the context of G1 (couldn't figure out why the Ballistic Tips tracked perfectly for a time then tanked), and you might also notice by his forum handle, he has 788s himself. I often sent students to Dan if I couldn't accommodate their scheduling and have been referring almost everyone to Dan since I have suspended teaching myself.I won't argue if you are right or wrong cause I'm just a newbie compared to your experience. This might be a tangent to the thread but are you disputing or implying the use of the word Harmonics on this page is incorrect?
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/
This approach will save you much pain and suffering.I had considered this the place to go to review before I worked up any OCW load for any of my rifles which many are Milsurps that I found was mostly a waste of time (which reading your posts explains some of why that is so). My future is only working up OCW loads for rifles of known barrel quality.
If your rifle doesn't shoot the FGMM 69s, there is likely a technique issue or a rifle fault. Although my field experience only includes a fraction of .223 rifles compared to .308s and the 6.5s, meaning I don't quite have the confidence level and remain at "pretty sure".I ask because My next reloading venture will be for a new Criterion Barrel AR I just put together cause all the other barrels I had shot crappy even with good bullets which I had believed at the time was 90% of the start to a good load (good bullet is needed for a good accurate/repeatable load). Although I had already shot the Criterion Barrel AR with a pet 69 SMK load and showed it was 1MOA, I'll get a box of Federal Gold Medal Match 223 and give it a try.
The ELD-Ms and ELD-X bullets have been great bullets. The ballistic coefficients of the 6.5 ELDs are so high, relative to similar bullets, the first time I heard it, I thought it was a typo.My interest in the Hornady ELD was in a future barrel replacement of a 300BLK AR I have. It has a cheap barrel in it and learning how well the Criterion 223 barrel shot, plan to invest in a new barrel this winter.
Glad I opened up this thread.
One word: Stability.Very enlightening Ed. I've always been a "harmoics" believer, mostly out of ignorance. Now that you've successfully chased that specter from my brain, I'd love to hear(and understand) the actual reasoning behind the fully floated barrel and what makes one superior to the non-full floated barrel sometime.
With a floated barrel, your hand does not "flex" the barrel, while holding the rifle. A non-floated barrel has minute "flexing" based on the amount of force you use to hold the fore end. As such by floating a barrel, you are removing any outside forces from resting the fore end on your hand, sandbags, etc... from affecting the attitude of the barrel. The fewer forces exerted on the barrel equates to better consistency, when shooting.
One word: Stability.