How important is it to get an accurate powder charge?

[drive_accord_ingly]

So, we all know that powder charges are loaded into the case by weight... 4.9 grain of Bullseye, 5.5 grains of 231, etc.

How important is it to get those last pellets of powder into the case so they all weigh the same consistent amount when...

1) Powders charges are actually measured by volume. But we have to use weight because...
2) interior case volume are inconsistent
3) case wall thickness, temps, and humidity all affect dispensed powder volume.
4) particulates can throw off the real weight of the powder charge
5) real case volume, And consequently the powder to oxygen ratio can vary due to the above factors. This is especially important in compressed loads like the .308 or .223.

So how important is actual slight variances in powder charge weight ( I mean in terms of 0.1 grains or less ) when charging cases with powder?

 

[noahhh]

Let me put it this way. Benchrest competitors never weigh charges when loading at the shooting bench.

Do a simple test: pick your favorite load and load a batch weighing each charge precisely, and load a batch where the charges are all thrown into the cases straight from the measure. Perhaps out of curiosity weigh those charges too, but don't adjust them. Shoot comparison targets and report back. Betcha a bacon sandwich you won't see a difference.

 

[Magnumite]

^^^ 'Tis true. I have shot thrown charges for eons...just use regular check intervals to verify correct charge is being thrown. Nothing is given up in accuracy, extreme long range rifle being the caveat.

Also, gunpowder and primers don't use oxygen, the oxidizer is in the powder.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

^^^ 'Tis true. I have shot thrown charges for eons...just use regular check intervals to verify correct charge is being thrown. Nothing is given up in accuracy, extreme long range rifle being the caveat.

Also, gunpowder and primers don't use oxygen, the oxidizer is in the powder.

Learn something new every day.

I always assumed that little bit of air in the case and between the grains is what got the party started.

 

[chad2]

get hodgdon powders they are well known for having the least amount of extreme spread also the #1 used competition powder by a large margin. this makes measuring powder much easier because like noahhh said you can just throw charges and not worry about it once you get your load worked up.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I'm not quite clear. Is the OP questioning what degree of powder charge consistancy is desireable, or strongly backing measuring by powder volume in the eternal weight vs volume debate ?

 

[Jmorrismetal]

Either will be close to one another if the kernels of the powder are consistent and can flow well into and out of the volume measure. This is why ball powders are so consistent out of volume measures and some measure designs accommodate extruded powders better than others.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I certianly have my observations and opinions on W vs V. I just can't tell if the OP is saying to the effect of " There are so many other unaccounted variables of significant importance, consistant powders charges don't mean much. " Or if he is saying to the effect of " Damn skippy powder charges are important. Volume rules and scales drool." ?

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

I'm not quite clear. Is the OP questioning what degree of powder charge consistancy is desireable, or strongly backing measuring by powder volume in the eternal weight vs volume debate ?

Given inconsistencies in case wall thickness, temperature, particulates, etc. hiw would you get an accuarate measure if powder volume?

My question is really after you spent the time to adjust the powder measure and set up the throw to work up that charge of 231 in your powder measure and it throws you 5.5 give or take a couple of granules ( maybe the beam scale tips up or down a hair over 15 rounds) how much more anal.... Err... Precise does one have to be.

And, I am not advocating deliberately messing charge weights by 3 grains between each charge, just granules if difference. I am not trying to poo poo safely charged cases at all.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Within that context, temperature is beyond your control, ignore particulates in the powder assuming they will be more or less evenly distributed throughout the pound of powder.

If your pile of cases to be loaded have noticable variation in weight/ wall thickness/ capacity, sort by headstamp.

If your intended 5gr of 231 falls within 4.95 and 5.05 , it will be more consistant than your pistol otherwise.

 

[madmantrapper]

I am anal about powder charge. I weigh every charge, I drive myself nuts being within a half tenth grain of target weight. I know for my .22-250, 2 tenths makes a large difference in accuracy. Now I will admit I can use volumetric measures and get within the half tenth pretty consistently but I still weigh the charge. I also only use one brand case for most everything I load for accuracy. I load all rifle cartridges on a single stage press. Pistol and revolvers not so much. I load them on a Dillion 1050 as fast as I can go.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Reloading is all about variables. Some variables we can control and some we can't. Do the best you can do to control the variables you can control and hope the ones you can't control are not significant enough to be noticed within that big variable the shooters ability.

Want to know about variables? Here is an article about the variables Eley found when studying the lowly .22 rim fire:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_eley_101405/

One of the founding fathers of ballistics research, F. W. Mann, spent his life trying to understand and control the variables. His book, The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target:, although dated is still a great read and helpful in trying to understand the whole reloading and accuracy thing:
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.pdf

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

^^^ 'Tis true. I have shot thrown charges for eons...just use regular check intervals to verify correct charge is being thrown. Nothing is given up in accuracy, extreme long range rifle being the caveat.

Also, gunpowder and primers don't use oxygen, the oxidizer is in the powder.

Fascinating!

Since the oxidizer is in the powder, will powder burn underwater, where there is no oxygen?

Not deliberately being a PITA, just seems to make sense.

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

I am anal about powder charge. I weigh every charge, I drive myself nuts being within a half tenth grain of target weight. I know for my .22-250, 2 tenths makes a large difference in accuracy. Now I will admit I can use volumetric measures and get within the half tenth pretty consistently but I still weigh the charge. I also only use one brand case for most everything I load for accuracy. I load all rifle cartridges on a single stage press. Pistol and revolvers not so much. I load them on a Dillion 1050 as fast as I can go.

Sigh...What do you think drove me to make this post?

But your fact about the .22-250 is intriguing. So there is a reason to be as anal-retentive as possible. those tiny molecules of powder DOES matter.


For all you do...

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

Want to know about variables? Here is an article about the variables Eley found when studying the lowly .22 rim fire:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_eley_101405/

One of the founding fathers of ballistics research, F. W. Mann, spent his life trying to understand and control the variables. His book, The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target:, although dated is still a great read and helpful in trying to understand the whole reloading and accuracy thing:
http://castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.pdf

Can you email that to my private email server? that's Gil@MdShooters.com (make sure that you use a "G" not a "H". otherwise the email may never see the light of day again!)

 

[Blacksmith101]

Fascinating!

Since the oxidizer is in the powder, will powder burn underwater, where there is no oxygen?

Not deliberately being a PITA, just seems to make sense.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ire-weapon-terrifying-physics-experiment.html

 

[Magnumite]

Fascinating!

Since the oxidizer is in the powder, will powder burn underwater, where there is no oxygen?

Not deliberately being a PITA, just seems to make sense.

.

Set off in a closed container, yes.

 

[Pinecone]

So, we all know that powder charges are loaded into the case by weight... 4.9 grain of Bullseye, 5.5 grains of 231, etc.

How important is it to get those last pellets of powder into the case so they all weigh the same consistent amount when...

1) Powders charges are actually measured by volume. But we have to use weight because...
2) interior case volume are inconsistent
3) case wall thickness, temps, and humidity all affect dispensed powder volume.
4) particulates can throw off the real weight of the powder charge
5) real case volume, And consequently the powder to oxygen ratio can vary due to the above factors. This is especially important in compressed loads like the .308 or .223.

So how important is actual slight variances in powder charge weight ( I mean in terms of 0.1 grains or less ) when charging cases with powder?

1. Because powders work by weight, not volume. And volume to weight can vary based on a number of factors, including how you operate the powder measure. And some powders (extruded/stick) are more prone to variation when dispensing purely by volume.

2. This is why if you are serious about accuracy, you sort cases, and use brands that are known for consistancy.

3. No, none of those affect powder volume in the measure, they may affect the % fill in the case, but that is a different effect. To control, see answer #2.

4. What particulates? What is in the can of powder is powder. If some pieces looks different than others, that does not mean they are not powder.

5. As has been said, oxygen in the case does nothing. Case volume does have an effect. See answer #2 again.

Benchresters may not weigh charges, but they do shoot the same case over and over again.

All that, for pistol rounds, it will not make much difference. For rifle rounds, it can make a lot of difference.

 

[Magnumite]

Good notes.

To add, on more than one occasion I opened a fresh cannister of powder, settled the measure, did my ten throws to access the powder charge and mimicked the vibrations of the press during loading. Left the powder in the hopper for a week, threw ten and weighed it as a usual check procedure. As likely as not, I measured a small variation. This was dependent on powder, time of year and weather. Its humid now, good time to try it. But, the volume of powder thrown will be the same.

Using a measure which throws consistent charges, as stated in many low pressure pistol cartridges it won't matter. Even the cases won't have a huge effect in some cartidges, (example: 45 ACP) excepting gilt edge precision BE guns. In high pressure magnum handgun cartridges it won't matter much, at least to 44 Magnum. In 223 using Varget (there was noticable variation in thrown charges) it didn't matter in my rifle...shoots under MOA but I haven't been shooting for absolute smallest groups. See pinecone's notes and the accuracy info in good resource works.

I had a 10" T/C Contender in 30-30. Whether I threw charges or weighed them, using same make/lot of brass, it was a very consistent 1.5" gun with that bullet and me at bags and working the throttle.

As one gains knowlege, experience and knowing the level of accuracy sought choosing thrown versus weighed charges will become a solid prediction with the group shooting speaking the results.

 

[Major03]

Since when we work up a load for accuracy we typically go up in .2 gr increments, and we see accuracy nodes, then measurement by powder volume would seem to me to be important.

Now, is it important within say .05 gr? No, and certainly not within .02 gr (or whatever sensitivity your ridiculously expensive and accurate digital scale is capable of). Can the average occasional shooter even see a difference if the throw was off by even a gr or two...probably not.

For pistol I just get the initial throw set up and then check every so often to make sure I'm still good to go, for rifle I throw a touch light and trickle up every round. Time consuming, but I like to think that I'm controlling one of the most important variables...and thinking I am is probably 99% of what makes the difference at the range to be honest.

Marksmanship is mostly a mental effort.