Howa 1500 Problem

[Maryland Hunter]

I've had a Howa 1500, chambered in 6.5x55 for several years. All loads, factory and handloads, no better than 1.5"-2" groups. I've tried all types of bullets, different weights, powders, oal's, etc, no change. I bedded the action, free floated the barrel, worked on the trigger, checked the scope mounts, and eventually changed the scope. I've shot it next to my .243, that gets tight groups, and I've had other people shoot it, all same results. I've even looked at the crown under high magnification, and no defects, at least that I can tell.

I came across something today on another board, from someone who has had the exact same problem. According to him, Howa admits to a headspace problem in past 6.5x55's, and will replace them with another caliber. Thing is, I don't want another caliber, and Howa doesn't make the 6.5 anymore.

Anyone have any ideas on what options I have at this point? Any ballpark at what a gunsmith will charge me to work on this? I assuming that if it's excessive headspace that the barrel can be setback?

Thanks for any opinions.

MH

 

[Lou45]

Switch you to another caliber??????

Hard to beat that 6.5X55 Swede.

The barrel setback was the first thing that crossed my mind. Check with Chad and see what he has to say.

 

[E.Shell]

I've had a Howa 1500, chambered in 6.5x55 for several years. All loads, factory and handloads, no better than 1.5"-2" groups. I've tried all types of bullets, different weights, powders, oal's, etc, no change. I bedded the action, free floated the barrel, worked on the trigger, checked the scope mounts, and eventually changed the scope. I've shot it next to my .243, that gets tight groups, and I've had other people shoot it, all same results. I've even looked at the crown under high magnification, and no defects, at least that I can tell.

What shape are the groups? (tall/round/wide/two here, one there/three here, two there/other)

I came across something today on another board, from someone who has had the exact same problem. According to him, Howa admits to a headspace problem in past 6.5x55's, and will replace them with another caliber. Thing is, I don't want another caliber, and Howa doesn't make the 6.5 anymore.

Anyone have any ideas on what options I have at this point? Any ballpark at what a gunsmith will charge me to work on this? I assuming that if it's excessive headspace that the barrel can be setback?

Thanks for any opinions.

MH

1) A headspace problem doesn't affect it after the first time a piece of brass is fired in that chamber. After that, it only has excessive headspace if you force the case back down to SAAMI minimum by adjusting your die per manufacturer's directions. If you're handloading, set your die to bump the shoulder back about .002" on a fired case and headspace is NOT an issue, no matter what the exact chamber dimension.

This might help: http://www.shell-central.com/Brass_Prep1.html

2) In any event, long headspace doesn't automatically affect accuracy. I'd wager there is something else wrong, and knowing what the groups look like may help diagnose it.

Crown? (often the culprit, especially if it never shot well)
Scope base screw touching the barrel threads? (screw touching the barrel kills accuracy)
Mag box bottomed out? (preventing full tightening when the screws are drawn up)
Front action screw too long? (screw touching the bolt lug kills accuracy)
How do the bolt lugs look? (even wear, good contact)

It can really be any number of things. A friend has a 6.5-06 that never shot well for him, usually delivering 1-1/2+ MOA. We borescoped it and it was obvious the chamber was not concentric with the throat, and the rifling was visibly longer on one side of the leade than on the other.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Switch you to another caliber??????

Hard to beat that 6.5X55 Swede.

The barrel setback was the first thing that crossed my mind. Check with Chad and see what he has to say.

Yeah, that's the reason for buying the Howa, one of the few that I could find chambereed in the Swede. It's also what's got me frustrated even more, knowing the potential of the round. My 100+ yr old Swedish Mauser shoots more consistant than this one. If I got the barrel set back, I'm assuming that I could get rid of the ridiculously long throat so I can have a chance of getting near the lands?

What shape are the groups? (tall/round/wide/two here, one there/three here, two there/other)1) A headspace problem doesn't affect it after the first time a piece of brass is fired in that chamber. After that, it only has excessive headspace if you force the case back down to SAAMI minimum by adjusting your die per manufacturer's directions. If you're handloading, set your die to bump the shoulder back about .002" on a fired case and headspace is NOT an issue, no matter what the exact chamber dimension.

This might help: http://www.shell-central.com/Brass_Prep1.html

2) In any event, long headspace doesn't automatically affect accuracy. I'd wager there is something else wrong, and knowing what the groups look like may help diagnose it.

Crown? (often the culprit, especially if it never shot well)
Scope base screw touching the barrel threads? (screw touching the barrel kills accuracy)
Mag box bottomed out? (preventing full tightening when the screws are drawn up)
Front action screw too long? (screw touching the bolt lug kills accuracy)
How do the bolt lugs look? (even wear, good contact)

It can really be any number of things. A friend has a 6.5-06 that never shot well for him, usually delivering 1-1/2+ MOA. We borescoped it and it was obvious the chamber was not concentric with the throat, and the rifling was visibly longer on one side of the leade than on the other.

I was hoping that you'd pop in on this Ed.
The groups are hard to pattern. I can generally put two in pretty close, 1.5"-2", then the third, fourth and sometimes fifth shots are wherever, 3"-5" away, no real pattern to where. I've spaced them out so heat wasn't the problem, I don't believe. I've also tried cleaning and not cleaning between each shot as well. The results are always identical, all weights of bullets and powders. I got the same basic results at 50 yds too. I was ready to blame me, but I can shoot my .243 right next to it and touch three at 100 pretty regular, and as I said, I have had several others, who are much better shots than me, shoot it with the same results. I have put three in the group on occassion, but still a 2" group.

I had sized a bunch of brass a while back, and I do believe that it was full length sized. I'll try to bump back the shoulder just a bit on this last fired batch and see if it helps.

I'll check out the other suggestions that you made and see if I can spot anything.

Thanks guys.

MH

 

[Lou45]

What is the twist rate of the barrel and what bullet weights have you tried???

Optimum (IIRC) twist should be about 1/8" with 139/140 grainers.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

I'll have to check on the twist, Lou, but I've tried 120, 125, 140, & 160 grain. IIRC, I've used H4350, IMR 49831, IMR 4895, & RL-22. I may have one of those wrong, as I don't have my load book with me right now, but I believe that's right.

Same results on each, including assorted factory rounds.

I reloaded more last night, trying Ed's idea of just bumping back the shoulder a tad. I'm going to try to get out and shoot them Friday. Wish me luck.

MH

 

[Lou45]

What is the twist rate of the barrel and what bullet weights have you tried???

Optimum (IIRC) twist should be about 1/8" with 139/140 grainers.

I'll have to check on the twist, Lou, but I've tried 120, 125, 140, & 160 grain. IIRC, I've used H4350, IMR 49831, IMR 4895, & RL-22. I may have one of those wrong, as I don't have my load book with me right now, but I believe that's right.

Same results on each, including assorted factory rounds.

I reloaded more last night, trying Ed's idea of just bumping back the shoulder a tad. I'm going to try to get out and shoot them Friday. Wish me luck.

MH

If the barrel twist is not conducive to the 139/140 grainers, the barrel manufacturer screwed up. I have a Winchester 70 XTR Sporter (not featherwt) that was manufactured in 1986 (only 100 made) that will consistently shoot 1/2 to 5/8 MOA with Norma 139 PPC loads (these are loaded up to the European spec pressures, not the downloaded US manufactured pressures).

 

[Maryland Hunter]

It is 1 in 8"

You said that was optimal for 139/140gr Lou, any idea on how 1/8 is for 100-120's?

MH

 

[E.Shell]

A rifling twist of 1:8 should be fine for these bullet weights. I have 1:7.5" twists in a 6.5-284 and .260 Remington, which ballistically bracket your rifle's performance and both do fine with 139/140/142 grain bullets.

I'd suggest H4831SC over IMR 4831 or H4350, but you should get acceptable accuracy with these powders. Bumping the shoulder back less may or may not improve accuracy to the degree of magnitude needed here, but at least you will not be prematurely killing your brass and creating the potential for a case head separation.

Even if rifle designs are similar, there are still dynamic differences with the .243 vs the 6.5x55 and rifle handling issues that will not be apparent under the recoil reaction of the .243 will begin to show with the 6.5x55. I have two very similar rifles, one in .260, the other in 6.5-284. The .260 is noticeably smoother to shoot, and while neither have appreciable recoil, I will see a more drastic "announcement" on target with the 6.5-284 when I fail to handle the rifle correctly.

Another common cause of lost shots from a group is rifle fit and scope location. Incorrect fit will lead to inconsistent mounting, which leads to less than optimum precision. Could be your .243 fits and this rifle doesn't.

Goes without saying that incorrect parallax adjustment can cause inconsistent points of impact and groups this big...or does it?

Probably something busted though.


Were it my rifle, I'd strongly suspect a mechanical issue aside from headspace and try to find it.

First thing I'd do is examine the crown and look for any sort of irregularity. While there, I'd use a cotton swab and lightly swirl it around the crown. If there is damage, it will often raise a burr that will grab cotton fibers from the swab.

Next, I'd pull the front action screw and make sure it's not showing signs of contact with the RH/bottom bolt lug.

I would verify torque all around as I reinstalled the front screw. If there is a center screw (?), check that it is not overly tight.

Next, I'd pull the scope/ring assembly, then take out the front base screw and examine it for signs of hitting the barrel thread.

The front screw cannot be allowed to penetrate deeply enough to touch the barrel shank/threads. Different manufacturers approach this problem with different solutions. Some (smart ones) make all the screws the same length and counterbore the base holes to account for permissible penetration. Others provide one short screw and three of medium length with the intention of installing the short screw up front so it will clear the barrel threads. If the maker of your base provided one short screw and it went anywhere but the front hole, this may be the culprit if you find signs of contact (screw tip rubbed, barrel threads flattened at the bottom of the hole).

There are some setups that require each pair of screws to be different lengths, and if the short front pair gets swapped with the long back pair, the front screw may be tight against the barrel threads and not actually holding the base down.


If all this failed to turn up anything immediately repairable, good. If not, I'd personally pay a good gunsmith to look at whatever he can think of, especially bolt lug contact, chamber concentricity and even headspace. I have tools and a borescope and do much of this on my own, but most folks need a pro to have a look.

If the barrel is of otherwise decent quality and a good 'smith recrowns it and sets it back (as was suggested above) in conjunction with an action truing, you should see a huge improvement.

There may be a fatal flaw in the barrel itself, but a good gunsmith could tell you that prior to dumping a bunch of money into it.

 

[Lou45]

Those group sizes MH receives from that gun are beyond terrible. Hope he finds the problem and it turns out to be a simple fix. BTW< my Win 70 is a 1 in 7.87 twist IIRC.

 

[Russ D]

Swap the scope and mount and see if anything changes.

 

[E.Shell]

Hey Lou, yeah, definitely scrod, which is why I'd look for something bad enough to rattle when you slap the buttstock. Probably sound like a cracked baseball bat.

... eventually changed the scope...

Swap the scope and mount and see if anything changes.

Done already, but otherwise a good suggestion.

 

[Russ D]

Sorry Ed I skimmed but didn't pick it up. Did he change the mount? If it as me I'd try the easy stuff and then probably rebarrel with a good smith.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Sorry Ed I skimmed but didn't pick it up. Did he change the mount? If it as me I'd try the easy stuff and then probably rebarrel with a good smith.

Yeah, somewhere along the line I changed out the scope, the mount, and even the rings.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. As I said, I loaded up some rounds just neck sizing, I'm going to get out end of the week and try them out. I'll check out all of the things that you mentioned as well, Ed. One question, though. Is the scope mount screw contacting the barrel thread affecting the actual accuracy of the gun, or just preventing a secure connection to the scope mount?

To be honest, with all of the "improvements" that I made mention of in the opening post, results have remained unchanged. May be a few days, but I'll get back and let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again,

MH

 

[WSM]

Yeah, somewhere along the line I changed out the scope, the mount, and even the rings.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. As I said, I loaded up some rounds just neck sizing, I'm going to get out end of the week and try them out. I'll check out all of the things that you mentioned as well, Ed. One question, though. Is the scope mount screw contacting the barrel thread affecting the actual accuracy of the gun, or just preventing a secure connection to the scope mount?

To be honest, with all of the "improvements" that I made mention of in the opening post, results have remained unchanged. May be a few days, but I'll get back and let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again,

MH

Have you tried different primers? Sounds similar to something I read over on Steve's Pages. He related a story about a 25-06 that he couldn't get sub moa at 200 yards. All of his other rifles shot sub moa but that one. He tinkered with it for years but didn't make any progress. He finally switched primers and his groups instantly tightened.

 

[Lou45]

It is 1 in 8"

You said that was optimal for 139/140gr Lou, any idea on how 1/8 is for 100-120's?

MH

I have no experience with those lighter bullet weights. My guess is a slower twist would do better with those, especially the 100 grainers. The 139/140 grainers with approximately a 1 in 8" twist is about as good as it gets. Going with lighter bullet weights (such as the 100 grainer you speak of) in that caliber, removes that cartridge (and most of it's advantages) from it's intended "sweet spot" and places it in that dreaded "wet spot" on the bed.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Have you tried different primers? Sounds similar to something I read over on Steve's Pages.

I read that article as well. Looking back on my notes, I have tried CCI and Winchesters, pretty much the two brands that I always use. No noticeable difference that I saw. If I was down near an inch, I may think that a different primer might bring me a bit under, but with what I'm getting, I'm thinking that it's something a bit more.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

I have no experience with those lighter bullet weights. My guess is a slower twist would do better with those, especially the 100 grainers. The 139/140 grainers with approximately a 1 in 8" twist is about as good as it gets. Going with lighter bullet weights (such as the 100 grainer you speak of) in that caliber, removes that cartridge (and most of it's advantages) from it's intended "sweet spot" and places it in that dreaded "wet spot" on the bed.

An article that I read, somewhere in the web was from an eastern shore gunsmith named Truitt, highly touted the .243 as a deer round, based on his personal experiences. He discussed other calibers as well, and in the Swede, had the best terminal results with the 100gr Nosler BT. I don't recall if he spoke of accuracy though. I tried them more out of curiousity than anything, but same results on paper. A friend of mine swears by the 140, and another by the 160 round nose. Tried them too, not any real difference that I could see.

I agree with you that the heavier and longer rounds give you the benefits of the Swede though and that sweet SD that they're known for. I just wish I could get the groups that they're know for as well.

Thanks for your help, I appreciate the time you and others have taken in replying here. Hopefully we'll see some results at the range.

MH

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Progress?

Well, I neck sized the cases and went out to the range, H4350 & 120 Nosler & Sierra loads. Though the group sizes weren't much smaller, they were much more consistant. No crazy fliers 4-6" away that couldn't be explained. It was very windy that day, though I waited for calm air between shots.

I am a little encouraged with the results, small as the improvement may be. I loaded some rounds up with Varget and RL-22, using my 140gr slugs, I'll try them next. I found a few 160's laying around, I'll take a few with me as well.

I was able to get ahold of a set of Clymer headspace gauges, and tried them out. Though the no-go wouldn't fit, I found that the go gauge wouldn't go in either. Short chamber? The factory loads that I have shot in it have always loaded very well, no resistance. This one's got me stumped, but I can't see it causing an accuracy problem.

MH

 

[Russ D]

Where do you shoot?

 

[Maryland Hunter]

Where do you shoot?

AGC

MH