HUNTING optic for 45-70

[Biggfoot44]

Finally, .45-70 is a great round, but 250 is pushing it for a humane kill on elk at 250, as the energy has dropped to 1000-1500 ft lbs. Inside of 100yds and it hits harder than a 30.06

Really ?

If .45-70 ( & similar ) with cast bullets and actual Black Powder would completely penetrate a Buffalo at 1,000 yards , there's no question of it being fatal to an Elk at 250 .

The limiting factor is trajectory related , or more specifically , the shooter's abilities in dealing it .

Precise range estimation , and intimate knowledge of trajectories . and dialing in sights / estimating hold over .

Back in the day , involved Vernier Tang Sights , at least as precise and repeatable as modern knob twirling .


Now for a slightly different discussion of :

For a modern era Hunter/ Shooter , accustomed to bottleneck ctgs . with trajectories within +/- 50% of a .308 Win , what distances would they feel confident and comfortable without learning an entirely different branch of the Shooting Arts ?

150 yda would be a midpoint of the conversation .

 

[Boats]

Really ?

If .45-70 ( & similar ) with cast bullets and actual Black Powder would completely penetrate a Buffalo at 1,000 yards , there's no question of it being fatal to an Elk at 250 .

Yes. I believe so

According to Ammo& Ballistics 2 (an old copy from 2003, I admit) most factory 45-70 loads at 300 yds are between 767ft lbs (Remington 300gr JHP) and 1060ftlbs (pmc 350gr FNSP) out of a 24in barrel, with MOST energies being less than 1000.

The Cowboy loads listed peg 1000 yard energies at around 452 (around hot 45Colt muzzle energy) with a drop of -126 feet. Putting down thick skinned game at 1000 would be almost impossible with those numbers unless the round could be mortered in to the brain stem from behind.

Yes, 45-70 can be loaded hot (SAAMI max is only 28000psi) but thats handloads, not factory and there is still the BC of around .28, about half of a modern spitzer bullet.

So, yes, 250yds is pushing it for a humane kill on elk for 45-70. Ballistics don't lie

 

[454shooter]

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/45-70-government-325-gr-ftx-leverevolution#!/

 

[Biggfoot44]

Calculated ft lb of energy is a poor representation of results on game ( and overused by game departments . primarily because it's simple) .

Energy per se has the largest corelation with with small to ( modern context) medium bore , high velocity expanding bullets of ( modern context) low to moderate sectional density .

Big bore revolvers , full bore shotgun slugs . ( non sabot) muzzleloaders , and big bore BPCR all kill through the mechanism of large diameter wound channels , with DEEP penetration .

A .45 caliber wound channel measured in Feet , not inches placed through chest will be fatal to anything in North America

Any numbers based formula has limitations based on inherent assumptions , and are most useful , such as may be , for comparing like to like .

Other approaches use Momentum , bore size , and sectional density as factors . Even more so when figuring with Bullet Cross Sectional Area vs Diameter .

Compare high velocity small bores vs moderate velocity heavy big bullets with John Taylor's K.O. Scale , and the rankings will be 180 deg reversed from mere ft lb .

The closest attempt at calculations to be nuetral in comparing Old School vs New School was developed by John Wooters . Simplified ;

( Ft Lb ) X ( bore diameter in inches) X ( bullet sectional density ). Per Wooters , a number of 20 was to be generally considered plenty for whitetail , and 40 for elk .

Wooters' approach gives reasonable 3 way parity in comparing Modern High Velocity vs early 1900's era 7x57 , 6.5 Swede & Manlicher , .30-40 Krag , etc with long & heavy for caliber @ +/- 2.000 fps vs old school big bores .

As to the middle catagory , witness the plentiful contemporary accounts from North America , Africa . and everywhere all to the theme of " Dang ! That 156 gr 6.5 , 175gr 7mm , 220 gr .30 . etc , sure kills really big critters way better than they ought to / than the energy charts imply they should " .

The millions of Bison who became Buffalo Robes and Coats in the 1800's didn't all just happens to die of the flu in the vicinity of wagons of professional skinners . They were helped on their way by .44-77 , .44-90 , .45-70 , 75, 90 , 110 , .50-70 . 90. 95. 110 , and etc putting long heavy slow cast bullet thru their lungs and hearts , frequently with side to side pass through .

 

[Slackdaddy]

Side question:
I had read (somewhere) that factory loads are downloaded compared to what a modern lever action can handle?
The reason for the downloading is so that if they end up in an older gun like a trap door, that can not take the higher pressure?

So are the modern guns such as the Henrys and Marlins sold with pressure data ? or loading guidelines.

As I stated, I am new to the 45-70 and new to reloading (as in - have not YET)

 

[steves1911]

Side question:
I had read (somewhere) that factory loads are downloaded compared to what a modern lever action can handle?
The reason for the downloading is so that if they end up in an older gun like a trap door, that can not take the higher pressure?

So are the modern guns such as the Henrys and Marlins sold with pressure data ? or loading guidelines.

As I stated, I am new to the 45-70 and new to reloading (as in - have not YET)

Hornady reloading manual has separate data for trapdoor vs 1895 Marlins. They also have data for it in tc handguns. Sierra doesn't separate atleast not in the edition I have. Several companies make factory 45-70+p ammo for use in modern actions.

 

[454shooter]

Side question:
I had read (somewhere) that factory loads are downloaded compared to what a modern lever action can handle?
The reason for the downloading is so that if they end up in an older gun like a trap door, that can not take the higher pressure?

So are the modern guns such as the Henrys and Marlins sold with pressure data ? or loading guidelines.

As I stated, I am new to the 45-70 and new to reloading (as in - have not YET)

Here is some light reading for you....hopefully answers some of your questions:

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/the-45-70-government-html/

https://ultimatereloader.com/2021/08/02/45-70-intro-to-reloading-and-shooting-marlin-1895-lever-gun/

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/45-70-ballistics/

Typically, factory ammo is loaded to the low end of the power scale due to liability shooting it in trap door era rifles...however, there are several choices to buying "nuclear" level 45-70 loads such as Buffalo Bore, Garrett, Underwood etc. Even HSM offers a +P 430gr load.

There are generally three accepted loading levels for reloading 45-70 ammo:
Weak Action (1873 Springfield Trap Door)
Lever Action (marlin 1895 and winchester 1886)
Strong Action (ruger No. 1)

These "actions/levels" are noted in Lyman and Hornady reloading manuals.

I have loaded 45-70 ammo from 300gr to 500gr in T/C Contenders and Lever action rifles. It is a beast of a cartridge if you start dabbling in the upper middle and beyond power levels.