Ideas for self-defense shotgun loads?

[smokey]

Not that I am endorsing them for general purpose SD use , but they can have s specialized purpose.

MagSafe .38Spl +P+ fired into bedroom wall, round .38 cal hole , nothing came thru the drywall on the other side , no bulging or bumps either. Did leave my ears ringing for several hours.

The early generation Glasers used #11/#12 shot , and indeed have very shallow penetration, ie 3-4 inches.

Then back in the '80s , the late Mr. Joe Zambone decided to improve on the concept. Among other things he used larger sized shot, initially #6 , eventually #2 and #4 . Penetration with the larger sizes now runs 8-10in . While still less than many prefer for general purpose duty loads , it is in the same range as several succuessful fast expanding JHP old school loads.

Feeling the competion from MagSafe , Glaser created their "Silver" product line , using compressed #6 .

As a class , all the commercial pre-fragmented will have non-penetration of interior walls. For effectiveness on BG's my recomendations are : 1. Standard MagSafe ( not SWAT) 2. Glaser Silver 3. Glaser Blue .

They are expensive. They will hit low. You need to test them in your gun for POI . Some will hit within 2in at across the room distances , some 4 or 5 inches.

...plus, in other tests drywall pinched the nose of the glaser-type bullets closed in a way that led to MORE penetration after drywall than in bare gel. In all tests where the bullets performed as designed, they grossly underpenetrated.

for example...


there's also this...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-23-extremeshock-ammo-and-the-box-o-truth/


and this, which shows a guy shot in the tricep with a glaser round...roughed up his tricep, but didn't break his humerus or cause any damage to his torso because of the terrible penetration characteristics.
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/102000/JohannesburgTraumaUnit.htm

 

[Vile Shadow]

I want a couple shotgun shells loaded with dimes. That way I can say the intruder broke in and demanded my money.

Hmmm... Interesting. I'd like to see that tested on a crash test dummy.

It must take a hell of a charge to move a load of dimes.

 

[Jed195]

Hmmm... Interesting. I'd like to see that tested on a crash test dummy.

It must take a hell of a charge to move a load of dimes.

Did this once with a few different shells while overseas. Dimes and pennies sound like a swarm of big flying insects! Marbles, big ball bearings, washers, pieces of coral and short lengths of small link chain. All were fun to shoot and destroyed the targets but I wouldn't trust my life with any one of these over 00 buck or a solid copper slug for dropping an intruder in his tracks.
.

 

[Boondock Saint]

Hmmm... Interesting. I'd like to see that tested on a crash test dummy.

It must take a hell of a charge to move a load of dimes.

Not as much as you'd think. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-35-a-load-of-dimes-vs-the-box-o-truth/

 

[Biggfoot44]

Hey the OP expressed non-penetration of interior walls as #1 priority. I disclaimed I was not recomending as general SD, and specified different penetration depths. That said :

1. Still better penetration than birdshot at farther than powder burn distances.

2. MagSafe is different from Glaser in several important particulars.

Some people worship at the alter of " FBI Requirements " , some people are open to evaluating case by case. Anything meeting FBI penetration standards will zip thru interior walls , bringing us full circle back to the OP's requirements/ percieved needs.

 

[alucard0822]

Hey the OP expressed non-penetration of interior walls as #1 priority. I disclaimed I was not recomending as general SD, and specified different penetration depths. That said :

1. Still better penetration than birdshot at farther than powder burn distances.

2. MagSafe is different from Glaser in several important particulars.

Some people worship at the alter of " FBI Requirements " , some people are open to evaluating case by case. Anything meeting FBI penetration standards will zip thru interior walls , bringing us full circle back to the OP's requirements/ percieved needs.

And there is the rub. People are tougher than drywall, so any load that has good, or even acceptable performance against people will also penetrate drywall fairly easily. Much of the popularity of demonizing "overpenetration" came about with early expanding handgun ammo, it was one of the main features advertised in order to take over some of FMJ's market share. Today's buzzwords are "controlled expansion", and "barrier blind", being that early ammo didn't reliably expand if clogged passing through barriers, and generally expanded and limited penetration too much when it worked. Frangible tech is in it's infancy, jacketed shot rounds are too expensive to practice with, can cause reliability problems from the unusually light/fast loadings, in many cases they close up and turn into an expensive FMJ defeating the purpose, or underpenetrate significantly when performing as designed. Compressed powder bullets don't expand, and don't have the energy to both cause incapacitating injuries, or work reliably at handgun velocities.


Of course there is a benefit to reducing the danger to people on the other side of a wall, but a round that has good performance against a threat, and the ability to stop in a layer or two of drywall doesn't exist, but there are a few better than others before resorting to non-firearm weapons. A light projectile deforms and looses energy much faster than a heavy one, #4 buck is generally perceived as the smallest effective shot size, it will go through a couple layers of drywall, but will not have the force of larger shot, or most handgun rounds, it's been used for this purpose for decades. The training over the last 10 years or so has revolved around patrol rifles, 5.56 is both effective, and breaks up into small fragements after passing through barriers, of course not 100% reliably, but so far the best answer to the question. Of course with any weapon and any ammo the best way to limit danger to bystanders is to practice and train, better shot placement requires fewer shots to stop a threat. Training around the layout of your house can help minimize the possibility you will unknowingly be firing twards someone's bedroom, and good security measures will reduce the chances you will need to stop a threat in the first place.

 

[redeemed.man]

And there is the rub. People are tougher than drywall, so any load that has good, or even acceptable performance against people will also penetrate drywall fairly easily. Much of the popularity of demonizing "overpenetration" came about with early expanding handgun ammo, it was one of the main features advertised in order to take over some of FMJ's market share. Today's buzzwords are "controlled expansion", and "barrier blind", being that early ammo didn't reliably expand if clogged passing through barriers, and generally expanded and limited penetration too much when it worked. Frangible tech is in it's infancy, jacketed shot rounds are too expensive to practice with, can cause reliability problems from the unusually light/fast loadings, in many cases they close up and turn into an expensive FMJ defeating the purpose, or underpenetrate significantly when performing as designed. Compressed powder bullets don't expand, and don't have the energy to both cause incapacitating injuries, or work reliably at handgun velocities.


Of course there is a benefit to reducing the danger to people on the other side of a wall, but a round that has good performance against a threat, and the ability to stop in a layer or two of drywall doesn't exist, but there are a few better than others before resorting to non-firearm weapons. A light projectile deforms and looses energy much faster than a heavy one, #4 buck is generally perceived as the smallest effective shot size, it will go through a couple layers of drywall, but will not have the force of larger shot, or most handgun rounds, it's been used for this purpose for decades. The training over the last 10 years or so has revolved around patrol rifles, 5.56 is both effective, and breaks up into small fragements after passing through barriers, of course not 100% reliably, but so far the best answer to the question. Of course with any weapon and any ammo the best way to limit danger to bystanders is to practice and train, better shot placement requires fewer shots to stop a threat. Training around the layout of your house can help minimize the possibility you will unknowingly be firing twards someone's bedroom, and good security measures will reduce the chances you will need to stop a threat in the first place.

As a fellow Glock loyalist I always appreciate your Glock and ballistic posts!

 

[Bob A]

I have a story I got from a friend, describing an incident that occurred during the recent Baltimore festivities, the night of the Big Fire.

My informant, who has a history of sometimes embellishing narratives, told me he had been calling a co-worker of his, who lived about a half-mile away from the burning building - the under-construction old folks' home.

His friend, a guy in his early 50s, is ex-LEO. Apparently some local youths thought it might be worth the effort to kick in the guy's front door, to see what they might find. I don't have a count, but it was said to be several.

They were met beyond the splintered door by the homeowner, who had a short-barreled 12GA pump. He discharged the weapon into the chest of the first youth who attempted entry; the youth fell or was driven back by the blast, and began slapping his chest. "It burns!"

Apparently the first cartridge in the weapon was charged with rock salt.

This proved to be sufficient to discourage further attempts at entry, and the homeowner secured the door with plywood. In a little while, the Baltimore Police arrived, wanting to investigate the shooting, and to relieve him of his weapon.

The homeowner indicated the remains of the door, told the officers to wait while he produced his credentials, and persuaded them that he was not about to surrender his means of defending his life and property.

The police departed, without the shotgun, but my informant gathered that it might not have worked out so smoothly had the homeowner not been ex-LEO.

All I have on this is hearsay, but my informant did not seem to be making this up. He also mentioned that there was the sound of a fair bit of gunfire heard during his calls to his Baltimore friend, which was not spoken of by the media.

So, if the account is accurate, it would seem that the situation was handled without loss of life, liberty or weaponry. I give it as I had it told to me.

 

[joppaj]

No disrespect to you Bob, you're presenting it as told to you...

So he fired a lethal weapon at someone that wasn't presenting a threat to his life... Either that or he WAS facing a threat to his life and got lucky that his assailant was a coward.

My advise to anyone vastly concerned with missing is that high quality training is a valuable thing. To find a reputable trainer and take some defensive shotgun classes, then practice what you learn. The shot you got your target with is one that probably isn't going to hurt your family in the next room.

 

[Independence]

I have a story I got from a friend, describing an incident that occurred during the recent Baltimore festivities, the night of the Big Fire.

My informant, who has a history of sometimes embellishing narratives, told me he had been calling a co-worker of his, who lived about a half-mile away from the burning building - the under-construction old folks' home.

His friend, a guy in his early 50s, is ex-LEO. Apparently some local youths thought it might be worth the effort to kick in the guy's front door, to see what they might find. I don't have a count, but it was said to be several.

They were met beyond the splintered door by the homeowner, who had a short-barreled 12GA pump. He discharged the weapon into the chest of the first youth who attempted entry; the youth fell or was driven back by the blast, and began slapping his chest. "It burns!"

Apparently the first cartridge in the weapon was charged with rock salt.

This proved to be sufficient to discourage further attempts at entry, and the homeowner secured the door with plywood. In a little while, the Baltimore Police arrived, wanting to investigate the shooting, and to relieve him of his weapon.

The homeowner indicated the remains of the door, told the officers to wait while he produced his credentials, and persuaded them that he was not about to surrender his means of defending his life and property.

The police departed, without the shotgun, but my informant gathered that it might not have worked out so smoothly had the homeowner not been ex-LEO.

All I have on this is hearsay, but my informant did not seem to be making this up. He also mentioned that there was the sound of a fair bit of gunfire heard during his calls to his Baltimore friend, which was not spoken of by the media.

So, if the account is accurate, it would seem that the situation was handled without loss of life, liberty or weaponry. I give it as I had it told to me.

That sounds like BS, no offense.

 

[INMY01TA]

#00 Buck

This. End thread.

 

[SCARCQB]

00 buck and lots of it.